Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[justasking4]

I think this gets right to the key issue: Gabriel didn’t simply call her “favored”.

He called her “kecharitomene”. I’m not a linguist, but I know that “kecharitomene” doesn’t simply mean “favored” – which even Protestant translators admit, since they translate it as “highly favored”. (As I mentioned before, the term used in Ephesians 1:6 is “echaritosen”, which has the same root but does not mean the same as “kecharitomene”.)

Here is how the New American Bible (Catholic bible) translates it:
28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

 

[rinnie]

I agree and also think they are posting under more than one name. I also agree with Rob, praying the Hail Mary or Rosary for them is the best thing we can do.

How sad and sick huh? I will also pray, and I think I will TRY to once again shake the sand and move on. My work is done here. They never answer my questions anyway. But we all know the answer to the question, Yes Mary is sinless because she is full of grace (its in the bible) and yes she can and does intercede for you if you ask her. God be with you all and throw in an extra Hail Mary for me.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You must learning how to derail a thread from one of your fellow gang members. This comment here is off topic.

freesmileys.org/smileys/signs139.gif **
Opps, Point well taken! Yes, Mary is sinless and intercedes for us! **

Please get this word out to those that use this username…

**Not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify? Can’t you tell your own people? You want me to get ithe word out to your other shifts for you? Can’t you tell them yourself? Seems easier to me!
Who does this apply to everyone using JustAsking4? How are we as individuals to apply what you have just written to the OP? Shouldn’t you also be rebuked for doing so? **

 

[justasking4]

janw;4400186]Just Asking4 Why would you have so much trust in a Book put together in the 4th century by a church you obviously do not agree with or trust?

I trust this book because its the Word of God which has its source in God. The church itself is not is source.

But you do not believe things that were written in the first or second century that the same church takes as truth.

Depends what it is. I suspect there are things you don’t believe about them also.

I don’t believe you are looking for the truth. It seems your mind is closed and you are just trying to shake the faith of catholics or trying to convert them to your faith.

i consider this a good place to discuss things. I actually find most catholics here also closed minded and trying to change me-us…

After over 700 post, your not doing well.

That’s not how i see it.

Even I, as a new catholic am not moved one bit by your arguments.

Since Mary is the topic here what part did she play in your becoming a catholic?

After spending most of my life learning from the Bible and praying many times all during the day, listening to ministers from many different protestant faiths, too many to list, I have found the Catholic Church to be the only church that is really following the Bible.

You believe that Mary was sinless and prays for you by your study of the Bible?

As for praying to the Blessed Mother of God and the saints, I felt a little uneasy about that. But I knew God was leading me that way so I began to pray to him and ask that he help me with this if it was his will for me to become catholic.

Why would you feel uneasy about this?

He answered very quickly as the first few times I prayed the rosary, I felt more close to God than ever in my life. My eyes were opened to things in the Bible that I had read but never seen.
It was like, where did that come from. I read that so many times and never realize it said that.

Do you have an example from your study about Mary being sinless and interceding for you?

It has been a awesome experience. The only thing that has been better is the time I have spent in Mass. Spending time before the Holy Eucharist is the greatest thing about being catholic.

I have been to many pentecostal services that would get you so emotional, but when you go before the Holy Eucharist in silence and come away feeling you have been at the feet of God, the emotional service can’t compare. You also know it was not a experience that was brought on by the right music, preaching, etc., The peace and joy you feel is something you could never experience anywhere but in presence of God in the Eucharist.

Even if I disagreed with the church on some issue, I know I can never be content without the Eucharist.

Please pray to God with an open attitude, ready to accept his truth even if it is completely different from what you might believe now.

Are you willing to do the same?

 

[justasking4]

How sad and sick huh? I will also pray, and I think I will TRY to once again shake the sand and move on. My work is done here. They never answer my questions anyway. But we all know the answer to the question, Yes Mary is sinless because she is full of grace (its in the bible) and yes she can and does intercede for you if you ask her. God be with you all and throw in an extra Hail Mary for me.

Let me encourage you to get a Greek lexicon of the NT and look up this word --in Luke 1:28. You will be suprised at what it means.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Let me encourage you to get a Greek lexicon of the NT and look up this word --in Luke 1:28. You will be suprised at what it means.

**
Look at the Mother of God with your “inter eye”. Look at her face, feel the pain she endured as she watched her only son die on the cross for YOUR sins! My foolish child, you can see she is with out sin and full of grace. Open your eyes and behold the handmaiden of the Lord! May our Lord and master have mercy on your sightless soul.

God Bless**

 

[rinnie]

Let me encourage you to get a Greek lexicon of the NT and look up this word --in Luke 1:28. You will be suprised at what it means.

No need, I have the RCC. Thats all I need. If I dont understand something I can go to Father and he will explain it to me. Remember what I told you ja4 we do not have to guess what scripture means we have the Church to teach us. But thank you for your concern. Have a good day!

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not a linguist, but I know that “kecharitomene” doesn’t simply mean “favored” – which even Protestant translators admit, since they translate it as “highly favored”.

Here is how the New American Bible (Catholic bible) translates it:
28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Hmm … I guess I walked right into that one.

But, well, you know … the New American Bible … meh. Or as the French say, comme si comme ça.

 

[guanophore]

Everything. Mary inherited their sin nature via her conception by her parents. Her parents also inherited their sin nature from their parents.

This is generally how it works. This is why she would have to have been preserved at the moment of conception. At least you understand where we got to this point.

Go back and check the definition. There is no mention in that definition that a person is such a state has no room to sin.

Like I said, you have a deficient understanding of grace. Fullness of grace leaves no room for sin.

Goes back to her inheriting her sin nature from her parents all the way back to Adam.

Which is why she needed to be saved at that point.

The Bible does not mention any fall from grace. It doesn’t mention that kind of thing for most people in the Scriptures either. Should we assume they to never fell from grace?

I would not assume that. If they were all greeted with the term “Hail, Full of Grace”, then I would.

I trust this book because its the Word of God which has its source in God. The church itself is not is source.

How do you know it is the Word of God? You have only the testimony of those you cannot trust! Until you can prove that it is the Word of God, you really have nothing to stand on.

Depends what it is. I suspect there are things you don't believe about them also.

How would you decide which early writings to believe? You have no standard, since you can’t prove that the Bible is the Word of God.

i consider this a good place to discuss things. I actually find most catholics here also closed minded and trying to change me-us…

This is quite an oxymoron. It seems to me that a good place to discuss things would be one which was open minded.

The desire to see you change is probably related to your motives, and constant violation of the forum rules. We are here to provide Catholic answers to sincere inquirers, not to create a venue for your evangelistic goals.

That’s not how i see it.

This proves the comment that was made above. If you think you are doing well, it is because you are not here to learn, but to annoy Catholics.

Let me encourage you to get a Greek lexicon of the NT and look up this word --in Luke 1:28. You will be suprised at what it means.

I think not.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4405659]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Everything. Mary inherited their sin nature via her conception by her parents. Her parents also inherited their sin nature from their parents.
guanophore
This is generally how it works. This is why she would have to have been preserved at the moment of conception. At least you understand where we got to this point.

You make your assertions sound like facts when in reality there is no evidence that she was preserved from sin at the moment of conception. You are asserting something not only without any facts but you are making the Scriptures lie when it is clear that all men are sinners who were concieved by 2 human parents. If Mary was somehow preserved from sin then Romans 5:12 is false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Go back and check the definition. There is no mention in that definition that a person is such a state has no room to sin.
guanophore
Like I said, you have a deficient understanding of grace. Fullness of grace leaves no room for sin.

Not so. Grace never means " fullness of grace leaves no room for sin". Get your Greek lexicon on the NT and look it up. You won’t find such a claim there as you assert here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Goes back to her inheriting her sin nature from her parents all the way back to Adam.
guanophore
Which is why she needed to be saved at that point.

i guess you think if you keep saying this it will become true. The fact is there are no facts to support this assertion.

 

[Yeshualuver]

That third sentence (even assuming that it’s true) does nothing to reconcile the first 2 sentences. If women don’t have “seed”, how could God promise Eve that her “seed” would conquer the enemy?

Where in Scripture does any woman have seed? They receive seed but they don’t have seed.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

The word in Greek there for “seed” is “spermah.” I don’t think I have to go into the English equivalent do I? Get my point?

 

[Yeshualuver]

Yes, I have heard this before, and it is interesting. However, such a rendering would mean that we can clone someone, and since they did not have “father’s seed” they would be sinless. Don’t kid yourself that they cannot make a human clone. Do you really believe that such a person would be without sin?

Women do have “seed” in the form of an egg. It contains the same genetic material as the male “seed” in the sperm. One thing that no one ever seems to adddress is that it is the male seed that determines the gender of the child. The woman has only X chromasomes to contriubute, and no Y’s. If Jesus did not have any Y chromasomes, how did He come out male?

Sorry, just a musing, off topic here.

Cloning: No, a clone would still have a father. Because a human clone is just a copy of another human. The cell from the human from which the clone is made had a father with a sin nature. Thus, that clone would inherit the sin nature of the father of the human from which the parent cell was derived.

Jesus certainly was “invested” with the necessary chromosomes by the power of the Holy Spirit who is God Almighty. Do you really think that a God who can create the Universe “ex nihilo” (out of nothing) would have a problem getting a Y chromosome into Jesus’ DNA? I hardly think so.

 

[Peter_J]

Where in Scripture does any woman have seed?

Genesis 3:15. (Actually, you were the one who said that the word there should be translated “seed”.)

 

[guanophore]

You make your assertions sound like facts when in reality there is no evidence that she was preserved from sin at the moment of conception.

Well, you are mistaken if you think that the Christian faith is based in “facts”. It is not. It is based on the Revelation of God. It has many aspects that we call “articles of faith” that are statements of this kind, based on revelation, not scientific proofs. If you are looking for a religion based on science,you are on the wrong forum.

I have previously given happy concession that there is no way to “prove” what happened at Mary’s conception.

You are asserting something not only without any facts but you are making the Scriptures lie when it is clear that all men are sinners who were concieved by 2 human parents. If Mary was somehow preserved from sin then Romans 5:12 is false.

Two problems with this statement. One, the scriptures cannot be “made to lie”. Secondly, what is false is your interpretation of the scriptures, not the verses themselves. The Scriptures were written by, for, and about Catholics, so nothing in them disagrees with the Catholic Teaching.

Not so. Grace never means " fullness of grace leaves no room for sin". Get your Greek lexicon on the NT and look it up. You won’t find such a claim there as you assert here.

Fortunately the basis of my faith does not come from your Gk. lexicon, either.

This is the Apostolic definition of grace. Grace washes us clean in baptism, so that we are completely and perfectly pure. We can enter heaven immediately because there is no longer any sin, or stain of sin. If you do not understand this about grace, then your understanding is deficient, and you need more bible study on what happens in baptism.

i guess you think if you keep saying this it will become true. The fact is there are no facts to support this assertion.

No, but if I keep asserting it, sooner or later you may understand that our faith is based on revelation from God, not scientific facts, as dear as you seem to hold them. “Facts” or what can be gleaned by the mind and methods of man will never come close to what God has revealed about Himself.

 

[RobGentner]

Well, you are mistaken if you think that the Christian faith is based in “facts”. It is not. It is based on the Revelation of God. It has many aspects that we call “articles of faith” that are statements of this kind, based on revelation, not scientific proofs. If you are looking for a religion based on science,you are on the wrong forum.

I have previously given happy concession that there is no way to “prove” what happened at Mary’s conception.

Two problems with this statement. One, the scriptures cannot be “made to lie”. Secondly, what is false is your interpretation of the scriptures, not the verses themselves. The Scriptures were written by, for, and about Catholics, so nothing in them disagrees with the Catholic Teaching.

Fortunately the basis of my faith does not come from your Gk. lexicon, either.

This is the Apostolic definition of grace. Grace washes us clean in baptism, so that we are completely and perfectly pure. We can enter heaven immediately because there is no longer any sin, or stain of sin. If you do not understand this about grace, then your understanding is deficient, and you need more bible study on what happens in baptism.

No, but if I keep asserting it, sooner or later you may understand that our faith is based on revelation from God, not scientific facts, as dear as you seem to hold them. “Facts” or what can be gleaned by the mind and methods of man will never come close to what God has revealed about Himself.

**
Guan, They have no Faith! They are spiritully dead!" Unless You Eat The Flesh Of The Son Of Man John 6:53-63" Prayer is all that can work!**

 

[rinnie]

Everything. Mary inherited their sin nature via her conception by her parents. Her parents also inherited their sin nature from their parents.

Go back and check the definition. There is no mention in that definition that a person is such a state has no room to sin.

Goes back to her inheriting her sin nature from her parents all the way back to Adam.

The Bible does not mention any fall from grace. It doesn’t mention that kind of thing for most people in the Scriptures either. Should we assume they to never fell from grace?

Yes it does, start with gen 3:16 Genesis 3:14-15 The fall of man what in the heck do you think that is.

I don’t even know why I bother. I am going to try one more time. ja4 even the protestants don’t agree with your ideas of the bible. Lets start with fall from grace 1 for 10-12 heb 3:12 1 cor 10:12 heb 6: 4-8

Now for the last time this is the Christian definition of Grace:

a State of Santification by God (TO MAKE HOLY) the state of one who is under DIVINE INFULENCE. THE BLESSED MOTHER LIVED IN A STATE OF GRACE.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GO TO THE DICTIONARY ON THE INTERNET. LOOK UP GRACE, LOOK UP STATE OF GRACE. LOOK UP CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. YOU WILL FIND IT THERE. UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY EITHER! At this point nothing would surprise me about you anymore. So tell me this what happend to the devil? He used to be an angel. are you going to tell me he never fell from Gods Grace pleeeeeeeeese!

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4406124]
Originally Posted by justasking4
You make your assertions sound like facts when in reality there is no evidence that she was preserved from sin at the moment of conception.
guanophore;
Well, you are mistaken if you think that the Christian faith is based in “facts”. It is not.

Is it a historical fact that Christ appeared in history at a certain time? Is it a fact that He also was crucified on Friday and rose again on Sunday? These and other facts are what supports the Christian faith. Without these real facts you have a fantasy. Christianity rests on a bed rock of facts.

It is based on the Revelation of God.

And this revelation is based on real facts such as the resurrection that happened in the real world of space and time.

It has many aspects that we call “articles of faith” that are statements of this kind, based on revelation, not scientific proofs. If you are looking for a religion based on science,you are on the wrong forum.

Depends what you mean by “scientific proofs”. If you mean by that they can be tested in a lab somewhere perhaps not. Keep in mind most of science can’t be done this way anyway. Christianity is not just based on revelations but also on historical events.
Do you consider historical facts scientific facts?

I have previously given happy concession that there is no way to “prove” what happened at Mary’s conception

.
You need to go even further. Its not scriptural.
Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4
You are asserting something not only without any facts but you are making the Scriptures lie when it is clear that all men are sinners who were concieved by 2 human parents. If Mary was somehow preserved from sin then Romans 5:12 is false.

guanophore;
Two problems with this statement. One, the scriptures cannot be “made to lie”.

Sure they can be. False teachers do this all the time. We see this in 2 Peter 3:15-16 where it is written:
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Secondly, what is false is your interpretation of the scriptures, not the verses themselves.

Are you basing this assertion on your own private interpretations?

The Scriptures were written by, for, and about Catholics, so nothing in them disagrees with the Catholic Teaching.

This has been demonstrated to be false countless times.

Originally Posted by justasking4
Not so. Grace never means " fullness of grace leaves no room for sin". Get your Greek lexicon on the NT and look it up. You won’t find such a claim there as you assert here.

guanophore;

Fortunately the basis of my faith does not come from your Gk. lexicon, either. Then you don’t have a biblical-apostolic understanding of it either. It is by understanding what words mean in their original context that tells us what words mean. A Greek lexicon of the NT helps us to understand what the author meant by the word so that we don’t misunderstand what he wrote as you evidently do.

This is the Apostolic definition of grace. Grace washes us clean in baptism, so that we are completely and perfectly pure. We can enter heaven immediately because there is no longer any sin, or stain of sin. If you do not understand this about grace, then your understanding is deficient, and you need more bible study on what happens in baptism.

This so called “Apostolic definition of grace” has nothing to do with the meaning of “hail favored” one.

Originally Posted by justasking4
i guess you think if you keep saying this it will become true. The fact is there are no facts to support this assertion.
guanophore;
No, but if I keep asserting it, sooner or later you may understand that our faith is based on revelation from God, not scientific facts, as dear as you seem to hold them. “Facts” or what can be gleaned by the mind and methods of man will never come close to what God has revealed about Himself.

Your catholic faith may be grounded on something like this but its not what the Lord Jesus or His apostles taught.

 

[justasking4]

**
Guan, They have no Faith! They are spiritully dead!" Unless You Eat The Flesh Of The Son Of Man John 6:53-63" Prayer is all that can work!**

Do you agree with the assertion that " have previously given happy concession that there is no way to “prove” what happened at Mary’s conception. "?

 

[Peter_J]

Yes it does, start with gen 3:16 Genesis 3:14-15 The fall of man what in the heck do you think that is.

Hi rinnie,

I’m not “switching sides” here or anything like that () but in this particular instance I believe you’ve mis-read justasking4. Here is what she said:

And where in the world did it ever say she fell from Grace? And if you cannot show me where she indeed fell from Grace, she must have remained FULL OF GRACE the way the bible states which in part means sinless!

She starts by agreeing with you that the bible doesn’t mention Mary falling from grace. Then she adds that it doesn’t mention that kind of thing (i.e. a fall from grace) for most people either – notice she said “most” not “all”.

(BTW, it might not be my place to say this, but I think you may be taking this whole conversation a little more seriously than is really necessary. We’re all friends here, right?)

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie,

I’m not “switching sides” here or anything like that () but in this particular instance I believe you’ve mis-read justasking4. Here is what she said:

She starts by agreeing with you that the bible doesn’t mention Mary falling from grace. Then she adds that it doesn’t mention that kind of thing (i.e. a fall from grace) for most people either – notice she said “most” not “all”.

(BTW, it might not be my place to say this, but I think you may be taking this whole conversation a little more seriously than is really necessary. We’re all friends here, right?)

You are right Peter J my mistake. Sorry!