Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

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rinnie;4409191]Yes it does, start with gen 3:16 Genesis 3:14-15 The fall of man what in the heck do you think that is.
I don’t even know why I bother. I am going to try one more time. ja4 even the protestants don’t agree with your ideas of the bible. Lets start with fall from grace 1 for 10-12 heb 3:12 1 cor 10:12 heb 6: 4-8
Now for the last time this is the Christian definition of Grace:
a State of Santification by God (TO MAKE HOLY) the state of one who is under DIVINE INFULENCE. THE BLESSED MOTHER LIVED IN A STATE OF GRACE.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GO TO THE DICTIONARY ON THE INTERNET. LOOK UP GRACE, LOOK UP STATE OF GRACE. LOOK UP CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. YOU WILL FIND IT THERE. UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY EITHER! At this point nothing would surprise me about you anymore.
Have you looked up the word grace in a Greek lexicon of the NT? It says nothing about being sinless.

Secondly, even the definition you use does not support your view. Just because someone is under “divine influence” does not mean they cannot sin. John the Baptist is one such example. In Luke 1:76-77 it is said of him—“ 76 " And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS;
77To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
By the forgiveness of their sins,

John admitted that he was a sinner in Matthew 3:13-14. John had to be under divine influence to be the “the prophet of the Most High”. The second example is Peter himself who under the influence of the HS professed Christ and shortly after is rebuked by Christ as being in league with Satan. See Matthew 16:22-23
So tell me this what happend to the devil? He used to be an angel. are you going to tell me he never fell from Gods Grace pleeeeeeeeese!
Why would I say this? The Scripture is clear that he was at one point he had the “seal of perfection and was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:12
 
Have you looked up the word grace in a Greek lexicon of the NT? It says nothing about being sinless.

Secondly, even the definition you use does not support your view. Just because someone is under “divine influence” does not mean they cannot sin.
That’s true. But if they are full of grace, then they are without sin, because sin and grace cannot coexist together.
Why would I say this? The Scripture is clear that he was at one point he had the “seal of perfection and was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:12
The opposite of wisdom is folly; the opposite of beauty is ugliness. The opposite of sin is grace.

Where does it say that he was full of grace? :confused:
 
jmcrae;4410305]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Have you looked up the word grace in a Greek lexicon of the NT? It says nothing about being sinless.
Secondly, even the definition you use does not support your view. Just because someone is under “divine influence” does not mean they cannot sin.
jmcrae
That’s true. But if they are full of grace, then they are without sin, because sin and grace cannot coexist together.
What are you grounding this on? Certainly the Baptist was full of grace to do what he was appointed to and yet as far as i know your church does not teach he was without sin. Correct?
Quote:justasking4
Why would I say this? The Scripture is clear that he was at one point he had the “seal of perfection and was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:12
The opposite of wisdom is folly; the opposite of beauty is ugliness. The opposite of sin is grace.
jmcrae
Where does it say that he was full of grace?
Look at this definition that was offered for grace–“a State of Santification by God (TO MAKE HOLY) the state of one who is under DIVINE INFULENCE.”

Certainly Lucifer was under this divine before he fell. Certainly this is an example of full of grace.
 
What are you grounding this on?
The teaching of the apostles. This the grounding of all the Catholic teachings. They have their source in God, and come to us by revelation.
Certainly the Baptist was full of grace to do what he was appointed to and yet as far as i know your church does not teach he was without sin. Correct?
We have nothing to assure us that the Baptist was “full of grace” or without sin. Certainly he had sufficient grace to fuflill the mission Christ gave to him.
Look at this definition that was offered for grace–“a State of Santification by God (TO MAKE HOLY) the state of one who is under DIVINE INFULENCE.”

Certainly Lucifer was under this divine before he fell. Certainly this is an example of full of grace.
No, I dont’ think so. Angels are created under the same order as Adam and Eve, in purity and right relationship with God. they have no need for grace. Fallen humans need grace because we cannot come to God without it, having been separated by sin, but in the beginning, it was not so.
 
Yes, Of merciful kindness by which God exerting his Holy infulence upon souls TURNS THEM TO CHRIST, STRENGHTENS, INCREASES THEM IN FAITH, KNOWLDEGE AFFECTION AND KINDLES TO THE EXERCISE OF THE CHRISTIAN VIRTUES.

Due to Grace: Spiritual condition of which one is governed by the Power of Divine Grace.

Now how can the Blessed Mother being FULL OF GRACE, Leave any room for sin. I am not saying that the Blessed Mother was just given Grace. I am saying what the bible say’s She was FULL of grace.

Now if she was governed by the Power of Divine Grace, and was completely full of grace, how could she possibly have room for sin.

We have all been given Grace from God, But we have never been completely filled with the Grace of God. The only two people in the Bible that were totally full of Gods Grace were The Blessed Mother and Jesus.
 
Yes, Of merciful kindness by which God exerting his Holy infulence upon souls TURNS THEM TO CHRIST, STRENGHTENS, INCREASES THEM IN FAITH, KNOWLDEGE AFFECTION AND KINDLES TO THE EXERCISE OF THE CHRISTIAN VIRTUES.

Due to Grace: Spiritual condition of which one is governed by the Power of Divine Grace.

Now how can the Blessed Mother being FULL OF GRACE, Leave any room for sin. I am not saying that the Blessed Mother was just given Grace. I am saying what the bible say’s She was FULL of grace.

Now if she was governed by the Power of Divine Grace, and was completely full of grace, how could she possibly have room for sin.

We have all been given Grace from God, But we have never been completely filled with the Grace of God. The only two people in the Bible that were totally full of Gods Grace were The Blessed Mother and Jesus.
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.
 
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.
Because the greek word is kercharitomene which means full of grace.

Luke 1:28 And when the angel had come to her, he said Hail, full of Grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amoung women.

Holy Bible Catholic action Edition Goodwill
 
And besides what is the difference anyway. Hail favored one= one endowed with Grace. Whats the big deal?
 
And besides what is the difference anyway. Hail favored one= one endowed with Grace. Whats the big deal?
Full of grace has become a loaded theological term in Catholic theology that most if not all the marian doctrines are built on this one phrase. To think that so much has been built on a greeting is truly amazing and stetches the Scriptures beyond the breaking point. “Hail favored one” does not carry all the theological conotations.
 
Full of grace has become a loaded theological term in Catholic theology that most if not all the marian doctrines are built on this one phrase. To think that so much has been built on a greeting is truly amazing and stetches the Scriptures beyond the breaking point. “Hail favored one” does not carry all the theological conotations.
Im sorry ja4 my Bible says full of grace, hail favored one means the same thing. I can’t help what one believes or does not.

You asked me to show you where it said it in the bible and I did. Go get the oldest Bible you can find. It will be there. I agree alot is lost in translation, but the truth is the truth. I told you the greek word and it means full of grace. The only thing you can do is learn greek and read it yourself. Or find a Church you can trust and ask them. That is why I love the Catholic Church. They always come out on the side of truth.

Hail Mary Full of Grace the lord is with thee. Blessed our thou among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death AMEN.

Funny thing is ja4 I never needed any of this proof! I just know deep in my heart that the truth is the truth and God will lead the way. And that way for me and alot of People on this site is the Catholic Church. God would never leave us the RCC and then have it lie to us. If that were true it would have been gone hundreds of years ago. But its the oldest and still here. God promised us that. God Bless you ja4 and I really pray some how God will shed his Grace upon you and open your eyes to the gift he left us. His precious Mother. And her Love and compassion to help us get through this difficult world.
 
Full of grace has become a loaded theological term in Catholic theology that most if not all the marian doctrines are built on this one phrase.
No, ja4. Please stop posting lies and misinformation of this kind.

You have been informed repeatedly that all the Marian doctrines are corollaries of the doctrines of Christ. If you don’t have the intellectual honesty to study the heresies in response to which these doctrines were formed, at least have the decency not to try to mislead people.
To think that so much has been built on a greeting is truly amazing and stetches the Scriptures beyond the breaking point. “Hail favored one” does not carry all the theological conotations.
No, it does not, so it would be well for you to refrain from posting such blatant inaccuracies. :tsktsk:
 
Full of grace has become a loaded theological term in Catholic theology that most if not all the marian doctrines are built on this one phrase. To think that so much has been built on a greeting is truly amazing and stetches the Scriptures beyond the breaking point. “Hail favored one” does not carry all the theological conotations.
When the angel Gabriel greeted Mary, he showed her profound reverence because of her singular state of grace. No human being has ever been greeted by an angel in such a condescending way on account of our sinful nature. Moreover, our Blessed Mother’s given name was substituted for her position with God. This alone says a lot. The expression “highly favoured” can refer to someone who is in a state of grace, but it is shallow in meaning. The expression “kecharitomene” is more accurate in meaning. The Church Fathers acknowledged the latter expression which was translated into the Latin by Jerome when he produced the Latin Vulgate, the official Bible of the Vatican.

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord.”
Luke 1, 46
 
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.
Now you’re basing your arguments on the NAB translation? What do you think this is, SAF (Silly Answers Forum)?
 
I’m of the opinion that the Bible doesn’t say much about Mary because, honestly, it doesn’t say much good about women at all. The ancients were of the belief that women were little more than their husband’s (or father’s if they weren’t married) property. The people alive when the Bible was written would not have accepted any teaching that gave a woman such stature.

If you start reading at Genesis 1:1, you will read 66 books (sans apocrypha) before you will see women being treated as equals (with a few exceptions). And where do we first read of women being treated with more respect and equality than anywhere else in the Bible? In those passages describing Jesus’ dealings with them. Jesus performed his first miracle at the wedding in Cana at the request of His Mother (ah, the power of a mother’s intercession!). When Jesus was in Samaria, His disciples were shocked to find Him speaking to a woman; let alone a Samaritan woman. And yet not only did He speak to her, He revealed Himself to her as the Messiah, which is the only time He actually specifically admitted to being the Messiah! He warned demons, His disciples, and those He healed to “tell nobody” that He was the Messiah. Yet after the woman says that she knows the Messiah is coming, He specifically told the her, “I who speak to you am He.” Surely there is some significance in this?

I believe Jesus was giving a strong clue about the need for people to change the way they thought about women, and He did so not only to show that women aren’t inferior to men, but also to prepare us for the revelations concerning Mary. But we see that man is a slow learner, for even Paul didn’t get it- in his letter to Timothy, he states that he refuses to let a woman presume to teach a man or speak in church! Jesus knew that an immediate, direct teaching about Mary’s role in the Kingdom would cause division in the early Church that might have been harmful to the burgeoning faith. That’s my opinion, of course, not the Church’s.
 
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.
And just how did you arrive at your conclusion about the “superior translation”? Have you outpaced Jerome now as a bible scholar? Do you realize he had access to ancient manuscripts that we no longer have?

The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (Strong’s 5487), meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. This means that the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was not only as “full” or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called “full of grace.”

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp

To answer your question who has the final authority. Let Mary answer that. “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you.”

Jesus. Second, if Mary is good enough for Jesus for 33 years of his life, then she is good enough for me and everyone else.

We, Catholics do not put Mary above Jesus. Second, in the approved apparition of Mary, Mary calls sinners to Her son, Jesus Christ.

In fact she gave us this Fatima Prayer to be added in the Rosary.

“Oh, My Jesus. Forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and Lead All souls into heaven, especially those who need most of your mercy. Amen.”

Second, Hail Mary comes from Gabriel’s greeting to Mary. In Luke 1:28 states, And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." IN Latin it is read as, Et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus.

The word for full of grace is Kecharitomene.

The variant of charitoo here is echaritosen. While Kecharitomene is, according to everything I’ve read, a perfect passive participle, echaritosen is an indicative active aorist; so, while Kecharitomene indicates, according to www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zchxxxi.htm (talking about perfect passive participles in a different context and a different verse; brackets indicate where I am inserting “graced” for the word in the relevant text),

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

Here are a number of ancient experts and what they say it means; each of them is a Greek-speaker from a culture basically identical to that of St. Luke; there are a couple repeats from the previous thread, but from them I give new material, too; the passages are expositions by the authors of the meaning of Luke 1:28, generally centered on chaire, Kecharitomene:

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):

O purest one
O purest virgin
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other: and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.

Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.
 
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one?
**

Hi JA4T1T,👋

[SIGN]
Notice to Catholics**
The New Official CAF Answer to: JustAskingForThe100thTime’s questions about Mary being “full of grace”[/SIGN]

You have been told that the phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (Strong’s 5487), meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. This means that the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was not only as “full” or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called “full of grace.”

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp

To answer your question who has the final authority. Let Mary answer that. “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you.”

Jesus. Second, if Mary is good enough for Jesus for 33 years of his life, then she is good enough for me and everyone else.

We, Catholics do not put Mary above Jesus. Second, in the approved apparition of Mary, Mary calls sinners to Her son, Jesus Christ.

In fact she gave us this Fatima Prayer to be added in the Rosary.

“Oh, My Jesus. Forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and Lead All souls into heaven, especially those who need most of your mercy. Amen.”

Second, Hail Mary comes from Gabriel’s greeting to Mary. In Luke 1:28 states, And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." IN Latin it is read as, Et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus.

The word for full of grace is Kecharitomene.

The variant of charitoo here is echaritosen. While Kecharitomene is, according to everything I’ve read, a perfect passive participle, echaritosen is an indicative active aorist; so, while Kecharitomene indicates, according to www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zchxxxi.htm (talking about perfect passive participles in a different context and a different verse; brackets indicate where I am inserting “graced” for the word in the relevant text),

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

Here are a number of ancient experts and what they say it means; each of them is a Greek-speaker from a culture basically identical to that of St. Luke; there are a couple repeats from the previous thread, but from them I give new material, too; the passages are expositions by the authors of the meaning of Luke 1:28, generally centered on chaire, Kecharitomene:

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):

O purest one
O purest virgin
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other: and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.

Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

JA4T1T, Did that help, Please ask me again! 👍
 
Do you agree with the assertion that " have previously given happy concession that there is no way to “prove” what happened at Mary’s conception. :D"?
**Hi, JA4 :love: ,

Actually, I don’t understand what you are trying to ask.:confused: Could you please clarify? Was this originally in Greek and you translated it into Latin and now into English? :rolleyes: I would be more than glad to answer your question, if I understood it. 😃 Why not ask me why we say Mary is “Full of Grace” when you think “hail favored” one? is superior! :eek: I have an answer for you! 👍 **
 
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