Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[GailMac]

Dear Justasking4 - You ask this:“If Mary prays for you at the hour of your death does that mean you will be saved from hell? Is it necessary for her to pray for a catholic at this most critical time? What if a catholic does not ask for her help at the time of death?” to which I ask why on earth wouldn’t you want God’s own Mother not helping you with your last hours of life on this earth?

I imagine you have a biological mother and if you were a small child and sick who would have stayed by your bedside tending to your needs as you hovered in the land of the ill, praying while tending to your needs. Now imagine God’s own Mother doing the same for you! For some of us this means the last rites. For others it is faith in a lifetime of trust in her intercession and a knowing that goes beyond words. Problems with this? I suggest you pray a Rosary, the poor man’s Bible, and try the Luminous Mysteries. In particular the Wedding at Cana, the second luminous mystery and ask God to help you with your understanding of our Lady’s intercession during that decade. Perhaps your understanding of her will deepen. Please?

God love’s your poor soul Justasking4 and you could be spending all of eternity with Him! Like it or not, she is your Mother too! Quit denying her in your life. She loves you too with the love God gave her to love you with.

Peace,

Gail

 

[guanophore]

I imagine you have a biological mother and if you were a small child and sick who would have stayed by your bedside tending to your needs as you hovered in the land of the ill, praying while tending to your needs. Now imagine God’s own Mother doing the same for you! For some of us this means the last rites. For others it is faith in a lifetime of trust in her intercession and a knowing that goes beyond words. Problems with this? I suggest you pray a Rosary, the poor man’s Bible, and try the Luminous Mysteries. In particular the Wedding at Cana, the second luminous mystery and ask God to help you with your understanding of our Lady’s intercession during that decade. Perhaps your understanding of her will deepen. Please?

I am not so sure this is true Gail. I have found that those who have the most trouble with Mary’s role in the Church have difficult times with their relations with an earthly mother. Some who have been abused find it almost impossible to see the nurturing of a mother figure, even the Mother of our Lord. I think when people have unresolved hurt or anger, it tends to come out this way. Ironically, Mary can be a major avenue of healing grace for such persons, as she can fill the motherwound with perfection that only God’s grace can establish. Please pray with me.

Dear Lord, lead all souls to heaven, and especially those in most need of Thy Mercy. Amen. :byzsoc:

 

[rinnie]

No, it doesn’t.

I don’t understand Peter J. Hail oh favored one luke 1:28 rsv
or as Jerome translated it in the 4th Century Latin Ed. Full of Grace.

What does it mean to be full of Grace at the Very Least Mary is Highly Favored by having been chosen to bear the Son of the Most High,

If kercharitomene is translated in greek to mean full of grace, and Jerome translated in it the Latin ed. to be the same full of grace, would it not mean the same thing?

 

[rinnie]

The way I understand it Kercharitomene is a perfect passive participle of Charitoo meaning to fill or endow with grace, Since it is grace in the perfect tense it means she was graced in the past and continuous through her whole life.

 

[justasking4]

**Hi, JA4 ,

Actually, I don’t understand what you are trying to ask. Could you please clarify? Was this originally in Greek and you translated it into Latin and now into English? I would be more than glad to answer your question, if I understood it. Why not ask me why we say Mary is “Full of Grace” when you think “hail favored” one? is superior! I have an answer for you! **

And the answer is???

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t understand Peter J.

It’s very simple.

“Favored” does not mean the same as “full of grace”.

And, as long as we are on the subject, “favored” does not mean the same of “highly favored”.

 

[guanophore]

It’s very simple.

“Favored” does not mean the same as “full of grace”.

And, as long as we are on the subject, “favored” does not mean the same of “highly favored”.

This is true, but it is a lot more complicated to render “Hail, One who has been filled with grace fully from the past, continuing unremittingly into the present and future without dimishment”. That sounds like one of those long titles they made up for the pharoah!

 

[Peter_J]

This is true, but it is a lot more complicated to render “Hail, One who has been filled with grace fully from the past, continuing unremittingly into the present and future without dimishment”. That sounds like one of those long titles they made up for the pharoah!

freesmileys.org/smileys/happy026.gif

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4411627]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.

guanophore
And just how did you arrive at your conclusion about the “superior translation”? Have you outpaced Jerome now as a bible scholar? Do you realize he had access to ancient manuscripts that we no longer have?

Jerome’s translation was based just on a few manuscripts. Today’s versions of the Scriptures are superior becasuse we have more manuscripts and older manuscripts than Jerome had.

The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

Is this found in your Greek lexicon of the NT?

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (Strong’s 5487), meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. This means that the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was not only as “full” or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward.

This is where the context matters in helping us to understand not only what the word means but also how it is to be used.
Again you are and others are reading into the meaning of this word that this grace extends to the whole of her life from conception onward. This is being disingenuous when you know full well this is not contained in the meaning of the word nor is this idea found in the text. There are no Greek lexicons that support this as the meaning of this word.

She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called “full of grace.”

You can call it whatever you want but its not based on the Scriptures.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp

To answer your question who has the final authority. Let Mary answer that. “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you.”

Is the context for this saying in the context of prayer?

Jesus. Second, if Mary is good enough for Jesus for 33 years of his life, then she is good enough for me and everyone else.

She may have been good enough for Jesus but the Scriptures nowhere claim to that this is to be applied to anyone else.

We, Catholics do not put Mary above Jesus. Second, in the approved apparition of Mary, Mary calls sinners to Her son, Jesus Christ.

If you read again some of the marian hymns and prayers you will find that Mary has great powers to save catholics.

In fact she gave us this Fatima Prayer to be added in the Rosary.

“Oh, My Jesus. Forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and Lead All souls into heaven, especially those who need most of your mercy. Amen.”

I don’t understand. Why would a believer in Christ need to fear hell if Jesus has already paid the price for our sins so that we won’t be condemned? See Romans 8:1

Second, Hail Mary comes from Gabriel’s greeting to Mary. In Luke 1:28 states, And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." IN Latin it is read as, Et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus.

The problem is that you are claiming this as some kind of prayer to her today when it has been shown you the only prayer is to be to God alone and not to a creature.

 

[Peter_J]

“Favored” does not mean the same as “full of grace”.

Of course, the fact that they don’t mean the same thing does not, in and of itself, necessarily mean that they cannot both be legitimate translations.

 

[justasking4]

The way I understand it Kercharitomene is a perfect passive participle of Charitoo meaning to fill or endow with grace, Since it is grace in the perfect tense it means she was graced in the past and continuous through her whole life.

The meaning says nothing about that it is in the past and continuous through her whole life.

 

[rinnie]

It’s very simple.

“Favored” does not mean the same as “full of grace”.

And, as long as we are on the subject, “favored” does not mean the same of “highly favored”.

But the way I understand it is kerchaitomene means full of grace which is what she was at the moment of conception. That is how she is not born like us into original sin because she was given full grace at the time she was conceived. Now charitoo which means highly favored means she still is full of grace, as given at conception, but she continued this grace all through her life. But they still mean the same thing one is full of grace the other is more less Still full of Grace or continued, the fullness of Grace never left her. But it is still the fullness of Grace. What am i misunderstanding here?

 

[Peter_J]

Why are you using the term “full of grace” for Mary when the superior translation is “hail favored” one? Even the newer Catholic translations are using this phrase such as the New American Bible.

JA, since you’re big on 20th century Catholic publications, here’s a couple more you might like: the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) and the New Catholic Dictionary (1910). (Notice the latter even has the word “new” in it. )

 

[rinnie]

Check it out Peter J if you have time. I will check back later gotta run,. Its my day off and its a hard week for us. My Dad went to God this March and his first birthday since his passing is Sat. My Mom has a hard time, and this week is going to be super hard on her. If you could keep all of us in your prayers. So I will probally take her to therapy (the track, she loves to play the penny machine) it will keep her mind off of him at least for a couple of hours. So will check back later. Have a good day.

 

[Peter_J]

My Dad went to God this March and his first birthday since his passing is Sat. My Mom has a hard time, and this week is going to be super hard on her. If you could keep all of us in your prayers.

I will, and I’m sure others here will as well. :grouphug:

 

[jmcrae]

This is true, but it is a lot more complicated to render “Hail, One who has been filled with grace fully from the past, continuing unremittingly into the present and future without dimishment”. That sounds like one of those long titles they made up for the pharoah!

Which is probably why Mary wondered at the manner of this salutation, and pondered in her heart what it might mean.

 

[Peter_J]

Which is probably why Mary wondered at the manner of this salutation, and pondered in her heart what it might mean.

I like that.

 

[justasking4]

Which is probably why Mary wondered at the manner of this salutation, and pondered in her heart what it might mean.

Do you think that she had a better understanding how throughout her life that she was always living a life well pleasing to God by this salutation? Do you think it helped her to understand why she never sinned?

 

[Peter_J]

Do you think that she had a better understanding how throughout her life that she was always living a life well pleasing to God by this salutation? Do you think it helped her to understand why she never sinned?

Hard to say.

I think a big problem in the last few centuries (and even before that) has been people not being content with the teachings that were passed on to them, but feeling like they need to figure out everything about everything.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with speculation in principle, but in practice it has led to a lot of division. And even now (as you probably know) there are a lot of Catholics who are convinced that we should define a fifth Marina dogma.

Sorry for the tangent. To get back to your question, I think that “yes” and “no” are both perfectly acceptable opinions.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you think that she had a better understanding how throughout her life that she was always living a life well pleasing to God by this salutation? Do you think it helped her to understand why she never sinned?

This is a matter for speculation. I’m not sure how my opinion on this would be helpful to your understanding of official Church teaching.