Can Mary convince God to save someone who doesn't deserve it?

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Don_Ruggero said:
Given that you were attacked by one of the Catholics posting in this thread, I decided to go back through your text and add passages from Lumen Gentium that parallel what you are saying, with reductions to both texts because of the 6000 character limit

In paragraph 53, the Council Fathers remind all the faithful that Mary is “Redeemed by reason of the merits of her Son and united to Him by a close and indissoluble tie” and that “because she belongs to the offspring of Adam she is one with all those who are to be saved.”

60 There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”. The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it

[Par. 62] Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer

55 The Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament, as well as ancient Tradition show the role of the Mother of the Saviour in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation, by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the Church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, Mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light. When it is looked at in this way, she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin. Likewise she is the Virgin who shall conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel. She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from Him. With her the exalted Daughter of Sion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and the new Economy established, when the Son of God took a human nature from her, that He might in the mysteries of His flesh free man from sin
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Love your adjectives!!! I don’t believe anyone was "ATTACKING’ him but I felt he was leaving Mary out and not understanding Her roll as our intercessor. God Bless, Memaw
 
Don_Ruggero said:
What he wrote is quite correct, also from the perspective of Mariology. Perhaps you should study this specialisation in Catholic theology rather than attempting to gratuitously insult people.
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I didn’t know being a protestant was an insult!!! They do not understand our devotion to Mary!!!
 
Memaw said:
Love your adjectives!!! I don’t believe anyone was "ATTACKING’ him but I felt he was leaving Mary out and not understanding Her roll as our intercessor. God Bless, Memaw
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Your diction did give Father that impression.
 
James248 said:
Your diction did give Father that impression.
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His “impressions” can be wrong!!! I still don’t think it’s right to uses such strong adjectives against someone elses opinion. After all this whole thread was about Mary’s intersession ability for us before God. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
I didn’t know being a protestant was an insult!!! They do not understand our devotion to Mary!!!
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Why do you find it necessary to use six exclamation points in a post of 17 words?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Why do you find it necessary to use six exclamation points in a post of 17 words?
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I suppose to emphasize a point, isn’t that what their for??? Anything else you want to find fault with ??? God Bless, Memaw
 
James248 said:
Why are you condescending to Father?
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Why is he condescending to me if he is a priest!!! I didn’t start this. I was simply responding to someone else. I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion !!! God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
Why is he condescending to me if he is a priest!!! I didn’t start this. I was simply responding to someone else. I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion !!! God Bless, Memaw
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Your response to Sean needed correction.
 
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Back on topic please.
 
For my part Don Ruggero appearing is probably the best thing that has happened to the forums in a long, long time. It would be good if he could talk his fellow-theologians into taking part, or theological students, so that they would have some idea of what the laity is up to, or at least that part that frequents these threads.

It is interesting to see how far we can be fellow-travellers with respect to Mary. The ancient cry of the Swiss reformers was that the glory due God was being given instead to saints and above all to Mary. I am suspicious when it seems the attributes of God are assigned instead to Mary, particularly the incommunicable ones. For example, there are some threads running in Spirituality where words like Mariolatry, heresy, blasphemy and theological corruption seem like the appropriate response. I do not know the corrective that was issued, but my suspicions are that it is widely ignored and an older, more effusive devotion to Mary is being employed that has actually been censured. I don’t know enough to really engage them without sounding like the cranky Protestant that I am.

I was very surprised when Don Ruggero stated that the soteriological post was correct. I think Sean77 stated things well. That is the backdrop for what I am about to say.

We can of course all pray for people to be saved. I have a list of people I pray for, and I have seen at least one person die whom I prayed for for years who, as far as I can tell, died rejecting Christ. Other people I have prayed for have come to faith in Christ. In this case I have entered into the work and the will of God; we are privileged to enter into the work of God in a mysterious way. Can I persuade God to change His mind? I think when I can answer that question I will be somewhere towards answering the present question.

None of us deserves salvation. I think we all agree to that.

Allow me to rephrase the question. Whether Mary can convince God to save someone when they didn’t deserve it would be better expressed as ‘when they had no faith at death’ or perhaps ‘when they were not part of the elect chosen before the foundation of the world.’ Let me look at the second case first: it presupposes some Reformed beliefs, namely that each believer is predestined, rather than the Church as an aggregate (referring to Eph. 1:4). If God started out time with a list of who would make it into heaven, an immutable list, then Mary could not change it. Nor could anyone. A conditional list, yes. But not an immutable list. If it is a list of ‘whosoever believes’ then that is the condition for entering (or getting removed) from the list, and Mary has nothing to do with it, except via intercession such as I discussed.

If someone dies in a state of mortal sin and is on the way to hell, then we are discussing the first case. Can it be said that Mary can bend the rules and this person receive that kind of intercession, so that they are then saved? Would Mary then be praying against the will of God, his will being that they be damned, and so she would be sinning in doing so? That is my suspicion.

Again, Don Ruggero is a great poster. I am sorry that he receives the treatment he does from some posters on some threads. He deserves much better.
 
ToeInTheWater said:
Figured this question, that I raised in another topic, was best suited to be a separate topic.

I’ve read some claims from those who emphasize Marian devotion, that it’s actually possible for God to relent and agree to save a soul that deserves to be damned,* if Mary asks for that favor. ***
This strikes me as almost blasphemous and attributing salvific powers to Mary that she does not have. Though this may be a misunderstanding on my part of what Mary’s role actually is.

I also find some takes on the Brown Scapular, that merely wearing it is a guarantee to go to Heaven, to be rather superstitious, though I understand there is actually much more to the devotion than that.
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The question doesn’t specifically indicate WHEN Mary would be asked for her intercession and prayers.

If one is on this side of eternity, (before, death and judgement of a soul ) someone who deserves to be damned could still turn around before they die.

Within your question is Mary’s intercession.

Specifically Her prayers for that individual while he/she can still repent. Once judged and damned however, that’s permanent for that soul. No changing the outcome.

But before THAT, a soul can repent and avoid damnation

Example of Mary interceding

At the wedding feast of Cana, Jn 2:1… Mary said to Jesus “they have no wine”.
And Jesus responded
  • “O woman, what have you to do with me?a] My hour has not yet come.”
and Mary’s response to the servants, “do what ever He tells you”. And bottom line, they did what He said and Jesus did what Mary asked of Him, He created more than enough wine for them.

No body will mistake who it was who performed the miracle. It was Jesus
No body will mistake who Mary said to follow, NOT her but Jesus
Mary asked, and Jesus performed His first public miracle even though it wasn’t His hour
She acted as mediatrix between the wedding party and Jesus

Using your point, One could ask
  • did the wedding party deserve to have Jesus rescue them, when they had no wine?
  • If Jesus and His apostles were at the wedding without Mary, would Jesus have answered the call for more wine?
  • After all, Jesus said to Mary, My hour hadn’t yet come. Yet when Mary asked, Jesus did what she asked Him to do.
Point being, on this side of judgement, Mary’s prayers, Mary asking her son, are hugely effective.
 
ToeInTheWater said:
Figured this question, that I raised in another topic, was best suited to be a separate topic.

I’ve read some claims from those who emphasize Marian devotion, that it’s actually possible for God to relent and agree to save a soul that deserves to be damned, if Mary asks for that favor.

This strikes me as almost blasphemous and attributing salvific powers to Mary that she does not have. Though this may be a misunderstanding on my part of what Mary’s role actually is.

I also find some takes on the Brown Scapular, that merely wearing it is a guarantee to go to Heaven, to be rather superstitious, though I understand there is actually much more to the devotion than that.
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Does anyone deserve to be saved?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
MarkInOregon said:
Does anyone deserve to be saved?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
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That reply really seems to be lacking.

The OP specifically spoke of the time on Judgement Day when a vile and sinful person comes before God’s throne.
 
James248 said:
That reply really seems to be lacking.

The OP specifically spoke of the time on Judgement Day when a vile and sinful person comes before God’s throne.
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#1 really isn’t specific when this intercession is asked for. Technically it could be for anybody walking around in mortal sin.
 
steve_b said:
#1 really isn’t specific when this intercession is asked for. Technically it could be for anybody walking around in mortal sin.
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We could say technically for a lot of things but we really need to try and understand the OP.
 
James248 said:
We could say technically for a lot of things but we really need to try and understand the OP.
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as he said about his concern,

“this may be a misunderstanding on my part of what Mary’s role actually is”.
 
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