Can men dress immodestly?

[Bruised_Reed]

That article is (thankfully) from 3 years ago and that “trend” (read:threat) never took off.

 

[QContinuum]

Dressing immodest isn’t a macho thing to do and is considered feminine among many men, esp conservative men.

I think this statement is most germane to the topic.

In essence, immodesty is seen as a property of the feminine gender.

The reverse of that is modesty is an assumed property of true masculinity.

Working from this premise, it is easy to see why women must work backwards from immodesty to modesty.

That is, they are assumed to be working from an inner defect of immodest intent, and so their outward appearances are scrutinized and picked apart incessantly by more sanctimonious modest, conservative men, whose very fragile mental focus may be scandalized at any time by an unwitting female wearing shorts to the park.

I find it somewhat humorous. If women didn’t exist (temptresses that they are), what would be the alternative? For straight men, that is?

 

[F_Marturana]

I liked your post, but I also wanted to give you a thumbs up .

 

[Pup7]

Pup7:

Ah, we have an old schooler amongst us. The Victorians and Edwardians did likely know what they were doing.

You refer to the well-known trope of placing curtains onto piano and table legs lest they scandalize the male gaze?

No, we know that was bogus during the Victorian times.

My reference was to the long dresses of the era. The belief - at least the front - that more created the mysterious.

 

[Magdalene]

I don’t know, i get what you’re saying but I don’t think it’s just this sexist illusion that women need to be modest. Modesty is important, for both genders. I think it’s true that a lot of men typically dress modestly already, not all, but in general. And while I think many women do dress modestly, you’ll find a lot more women than men who don’t.

It’s not because women are seen as having an inner defect. The problem lies with the over sexualization of women in our culture. So women are more likely to dress immodestly, because it’s become so normal from all of the marketing executives and everybody who has changed the culture. (Probably men.)

The clothes, the fashion, women’s magazines, movies… it’s too much. Even young girls are targeted by advertisers. Have you seen the stuff in “teen” vogue or 17 magazine? Even just make-up has become overly sexual! My eye shadow is called “nudie pic” and that’s not even close to the worst name I’ve seen for makeup.

Young girls are buying this stuff and seeing the clothes in magazines, and it’s important to help young women learn the value of modesty. It’s not just sexist men wanting them to cover up because they can’t handle it. That may happen, but I think the real sexism is in all of the men wanting women to dress revealing/sexy.

 

[QContinuum]

Yup, that’s why I called it a trope.

We do have some modern-day Victorians, who get similarly worked up.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

but if he’s wearing the jeans and a white undershirt instead, it suddenly becomes like he’s screaming “look at me!”

Yes. Or a v-neck t-shirt. I do more than a double-take. That’s enough hyphens for now.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

It has nothing to do with a six pack. It’s the Adonis belt, also known as “the V”.

 

[Pup7]

I’m pretty shocked that thin white t-shirts don’t seem to have been mentioned. I’m here as a man attracted to men, but I daresay men ought to be concerned about being modest with respect to what we find attractive, too. To me, a man could be handsome and attractive in a totally nonsexual way with tight-fitting jeans and a casual shirt, but if he’s wearing the jeans and a white undershirt instead, it suddenly becomes like he’s screaming “look at me!”

It’s the same with certain types of sweatpants. And speaking as a man, whether you’re immodest in sweatpants has a lot to do with whether you are wearing boxers or not. Boxers + sweatpants is equivalent to a woman walking around in a t-shirt without a bra. I’m not sure if all men realize that.

Somewhere in the insanity that this thread became in the wee hours of the morning, we mentioned sweatpants, and how awful they can be. Your analogy of no bra is a good one. And your tee shirt thing is also true.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Crocs are immodest.

Ehhh, more like fashion don’ts.

 

[QContinuum]

That women are objects of men’s desire is foundational to many things. It is also universal.

So women are objectified in magazines and movies, and also in religious communities. Whether she is half-naked to please a male audience in the U.S. or covered from head-to-toe in Egypt, she is still there as Other to the male perspective. Endlessly enticing, mysterious, infuriating, and…desirable.

Men desire, and women want to be desirable. So, the responsibility to act appropriately in response to sexual desire is shared by both sexes, both in provoking and responding to it.

The problem is that provoking lust is almost always perceived as the greater sin than the decision to act upon it.

She is the Cause, his attentions, wanted or not, are the Effect.

That, in my opinion, is why women are (unfairly) tasked with governing men’s desire by their choice of wardrobe.

 

[Magdalene]

I think you’re right, that’s been true for a long time. In today’s world this perception is changing.

But just because women have at times been unfairly tasked with governing men’s desires, doesn’t mean we throw modesty out the window. If only it were a perfect world and we had some balance.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

That, in my opinion, is why women are (unfairly) tasked with governing men’s desire by their choice of wardrobe.

But this is why talking about men’s modesty is so helpful. We can think more clearly about it, because it isn’t skewed by the rape culture. And then, what we learn from men’s modesty, we might be able to use to illuminate ways that women (those who want to, at least) can be modest.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What’s interesting to me is the knee-jerk reaction that many women have that men are UGLY when they wear clothes that reveal a body that women would find attractive, if naked. I’ve always found this befuddling. As a bisexual guy, I have difficulty understanding why sagging or halter tops or speedos or cut offs would seem ugly to anyone who finds men attractive. I can understand not wanting to see it – I think low-cut dresses are sexy on women, but I don’t want to see them, because I associate them with the woman being immodest and therefore (in her character) unattractive.

But it seems like women genuinely find guys in speedos revolting – in appearance, not just character. And I have no idea why. If they could please transfer their disgust to me in exchange for my interest, I would be happy to make the trade.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Yes. And one thing this thread has confirmed for me is that we don’t often see what might be “immodest” looking or good at judging what is "immodest’ when looking at the gender we aren’t attracted to. I see women dressed in leggings, sleeveless shirts and I won’t notice body parts but will note if the whole ensemble looks put together well (colors, patterns, accessories) and I might even tell her that. I’m complimenting her creativity because I think it’s a talent to assemble an outfit.

Now as far as men, the gender I’m attracted to, I don’t recall that I’ve ever looked at what a man is wearing and thought, “that’s immodest”. Because he’s a man and men usually don’t dress immod…hey wait a minute!. If my legs in slacks or jeans is immodest, if my bedonkedonk in a skirt is immodest, then a V-NECK ON A MAN IS IMMODEST.

Just saying.

 

[QContinuum]

I’m curious, why is it when any attention is brought to bear on men’s sexual response, the caveat is always, “We can’t just forget women’s modesty.”

This thread, which is about men’s modesty, is a prime example.

Your own response is a perfect example of what I said in my last post. If men’s desire is on trial, it is the Effect. Never the Cause, in and of itself.

So again, we immediately turn to the Cause of immodest thoughts- women.

I am curious - does there exist in this planet a culture or a society where male desire is not linked to female attire? Is there a society where women have attained such a standard of (unnatural) modesty that men’s desire has been successfully curbed?

I’ll give you a hint. Even when women are completely absent, men are still quite lustful creatures. Witness men’s prisons.

So, perhaps the conversation should be:

Men, control yourselves.

Women, don’t let yourselves be controlled.

 

[Magdalene]

I agree! Women, don’t let yourselves be controlled. So just wear low cut blouses and tight jeans that aren’t even comfortable. That’ll show them! Women’s modesty is a sexist ploy… How about lacy bra straps that can be seen through your shirt on purpose? (That was a trend a few years ago.) No more men telling us how to dress!

… oh wait, I think that’s exactly what most men would prefer.

I said earlier men’s modesty is important too. People have mentioned tight clothes, sweatpants, etc… I think men should also dress modestly. But as I said earlier, it is more of an issue for women because of the over sexualized culture. Most men I know dress modestly. Women I know… more like 50/50. Also, women in general are less visual than men, so it’s just not as much of an issue.

And the reason I brought up women’s modesty as being important is because it sounds like you are saying it isn’t. And many people today would argue that it’s not. I’m trying to do my part to not let modesty just be deemed an antiquated and sexist idea.

 

[adgloriam]

Adonis belt

Since you mention it, the “Lower dantian” is where overall beauty is defined with the paradox that it’s actually interior. Hence, the keen eye needed to observe its effect and expression. Anybody can work the outer muscles but a serious athlete is defined by how he works his “lower dantien”. And its balance will reflect on all parts of the body and the motion of the body - without any mysticism to it, since it is: the center of mass.

 

[dochawk]

What do you guys think about men’s accessories? I enjoy wearing a nice watch and adding detail to an outfit. Simple things like tie clips highlight a wardrobe.

I wore a pocket watch, with or without a suit, until the day came that I had to take out my reading glasses for the watch (I can’t wear a wristwatch; it makes me far too conscious of the time). Now my cellphone has huge numbers to read the time.

All of my business shirts except one I’ve never worn have french cuffs, so cufflinks are are a regular affair. I have yet to find a tie clip that works well. There used to be many with a chain on the back to go in a buttonhole, to keep it in place. Without that, they do more to make the tie not flt right than anything else.

I would prefer that men’s shorts weren’t so long as today, though; I can’t find any that don’t knock my kneecaps, which is distracting and annoying (although I don’t want them so short as the gym shorts of the 80s and earlier, either!).
hawk

 

[MonteRCMS]

Wear loose fitting clothes with the shirt buttoned up. No shorts unless you are younger than 10 years old.