Can men dress immodestly?

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Modesty in no way means covering up yourself to the point of erasing your public existence. Geez… I’m not arguing for women to become invisible. I’m just saying modesty is important, and just because women have been oppressed and blamed for the lustful feelings of men, doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t encourage a reasonable amount of modesty. For women, and for men.
 
I feel like we probably (maybe?) both agree. Modesty is important, a reasonable amount of modesty, for both men and women.

For some reason, you seem very opposed to the idea that any amount of modesty should be encouraged for women. Which I don’t understand.
 
Modesty is a virtue not an objective idea that should be practiced in word, dress, and action. Sorry didn’t mean to reply to you specifically but just a general comment.
 
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Why do people say “modesty is a virtue” as if that means it makes no concrete demands on us? Generosity is a virtue, too, but if you keep all your stuff, you’re not generous.
 
I think a reasonable amount of modesty (in word, dress, and action) is important for both men and women. I think we talk about dress the most because it’s the most obvious from looking at someone. It isnt objective… but I like to think most reasonable people have a good idea of what dressing modestly looks like, with a little bit of room for grace.
 
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Sure, there was a Sean Connery movie…if you have seen it you would remember it.
 
Magdalene said:
It is objective… but I like to think most reasonable people have a good idea of what dressing modestly looks like, with a little bit of room for grace.
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To say modesty is objective doesn’t mean that there are inflexible standards. Respecting the dead is an objective necessity, but it is done in different ways in different cultures, and that is fine. Modesty may be contextual to culture, locality, even familial group. But it is still something that is not optional for us, and it still has objective values at its core.

And modesty and its lack are often more evident in behavior than in dress. Especially with men.
 
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Not opposed at all. To be frank, I have conservative tastes when it comes to what I like to see.

Perhaps to explain my view better - I tend to pity those women who dress in ill-fitting and “trashy” clothes, because it speaks more to me of poverty of self-esteem and dignity than any immorality.

There are some sophisticated women who are able to dress in revealing or fitted dress and who are able to pull it off as a living work of art. I enjoy art and so I admire these women.

And there are a good number of women in between. I think modern clothing is unfortunately so casual and poorly made that it is difficult find well-made clothing that is flattering, tasteful, and appropriate for every sphere of life - office, home, school, church, entertainment, etc.

So, we have a very big range of what is “acceptable” and what is scandalous.
 
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I know, I’ve been arguing the importance of being modest this whole time. I never said that because it’s objective we don’t follow the standards. I said most reasonable people know what dressing modestly looks like. So we should do that even though we’re not all going to agree. Ever heard of sola skirtura? I was battling that last night :roll_eyes:
 
I wasn’t thinking I was correcting you, just explaining how what you said could be true despite the fact that the “facts on the ground” about modesty vary pretty dramatically from place to place.
 
No I mean objectibe as in the belief that there is a universal rule for what’s modest or not. Firstly modesty is a virtue (as defined by the CCC) and so an otem of clothing cannot just be deemed modest or immodest as it can’t be deemed responsible, respectful, empathetic etc. The person is the one who can be respectful or choose to do something respectfully. Same with modesty. A piece of clothing can be appropriate or inappropriate and someone must have th virtue of modesty in order to choose appropriate clothing. And then what is appropriate clothing is subjective to whatever that’s the place is. So what’s appropriate to the beach may not be for the workplace and a modest person may choose to wear both at appropriate times. To suggest a universal guidline of appropriaye clothing is just a dress code. They work very well for making sure people don’t cross the line but they can’t be substituted for the actual thing.

This is the Church teaching on this matter.
 
QContinuum said:
And there are a good number of women in between. I think modern clothing is unfortunately so casual and poorly that it is difficult find well-made clothing that is flattering, tasteful, and appropriate for every sphere of life - office, home, school, church, entertainment, etc.
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I think the standardization of mass produced clothing doesn’t help. Stretchy or revealing cuts are often more forgiving of different body shapes. The more coverage and fitted a a garment is expected to be, the more it matters how it fits.

I was trying on blazers this morning and came to the conclusion that a size 8 fit my shoulders and a size 12 fit my chest. Which means there’s just no way to get that jacket to fit and look good on me
 
Sorry, I meant it isn’t* objective… I think I’m getting tired.
 
Is this where the comments on having a piece tailored comes into play? Don’t want to come across as snarky; have the same problem with off the rack suits.
 
Yeah, definitely. Shoulders are really really hard to tailor though. Men are usually advised to buy for the shoulders and have the rest tailored. For busty women that doesn’t work so well.

A lot of us are loving the new open-front blazer trend for women, because it lets us buy things that are considered formal but don’t need to actually close!
 
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