Can Montanism and Pentecostalism be compared?

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Hi everyone. First, here are some rules for this thread. First of all, this thread is for Catholics to discuss Pentecostalism and it’s comparisons to the ancient heresy of Montanism. This is not a thread for Pentecostals to come in and argue about how their church cannot be compared to the ancient Montanist heresy. So, Catholics, let’s discuss this! 👍 Can the Pentecostal movement of today be compared to the Montanist heresy of ancient times? :confused:
 
I just thought I’d bump this up as I am still interested in this and have gotten no replies.
 
I’m afraid I’m not familiar with Montanism. Could you give us a bit of background or give us some links with accurate information? Thank you!
 
I think Montanism and Marian apparitions (the talking kind) can be compared.
 
Hesychios said:
I think Montanism and Marian apparitions (the talking kind) can be compared.
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Melkite_Sword said:
Why do you say this?
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Yes Hesychios, why do you say this? 🤷:confused: I would like for someone to address this problem you have but I also would not like to have my thread derailed. Would you care to start another thread on this should the replies to your assertion grow to be more than a couple of posts?
 
Holly3278 said:
Yes Hesychios, why do you say this? 🤷:confused: I would like for someone to address this problem you have but I also would not like to have my thread derailed. Would you care to start another thread on this should the replies to your assertion grow to be more than a couple of posts?
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I do not understand the phrasing of this response. :confused:

I do not have a problem.

You stated: “this thread is for Catholics to discuss Pentecostalism and it’s comparisons to the ancient heresy of Montanism”, but then you give nothing else to support that idea. The thread is going no where.

If you have a thesis, perhaps you could work it out in the Apologetics section.

This is my position:

Montanism purported to be receiving messages from the Divine on how and what we should think and worship It was condemned by the entire church because the Age of Revelation has closed.

Fats forward another 600 years or so, and we can see the same problem manifesting again in the church with the Holy Theotokos personage fronting for the Divine instead of the Holy Spirit.

Same problem, different guise.

The Pentacostal idea doesn’t seem to work, because the “tongues” manifestation doesn’t really communicate, it seems to be unintelligible for the most part, and does not influence the beliefs of the people involved.
 
Hesychios said:
I do not understand the phrasing of this response. :confused:

I do not have a problem.

You stated: “this thread is for Catholics to discuss Pentecostalism and it’s comparisons to the ancient heresy of Montanism”, but then you give nothing else to support that idea. The thread is going no where.

If you have a thesis, perhaps you could work it out in the Apologetics section.

This is my position:

Montanism purported to be receiving messages from the Divine on how and what we should think and worship It was condemned by the entire church because the Age of Revelation has closed.

Fats forward another 600 years or so, and we can see the same problem manifesting again in the church with the Holy Theotokos personage fronting for the Divine instead of the Holy Spirit.

Same problem, different guise.

The Pentacostal idea doesn’t seem to work, because the “tongues” manifestation doesn’t really communicate, it seems to be unintelligible for the most part, and does not influence the beliefs of the people involved.
Click to expand...
Aren’t most Pentecostals Catholic?
 
Hesychios said:
I think Montanism and Marian apparitions (the talking kind) can be compared.
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be careful about criticizing something that might be from God
what if it really is Mary?

the apparitions are not public revelation…they are private revelation. That’s different from montanism.
 
Monica4316 said:
:confused: Pentecostalism is a Protestant denomination

there are no Pentecostal Catholics…

maybe you’re thinking of Charismatic Catholics?
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Yes, most charismatics I know are Catholics.

I know of no The Pentecostal Church. Where is it headquartered? I know of some denominations that include some Pentecostal beliefs - such as speaking in tongues, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but PERSONALLY, nearly all I know of with those beliefs and practices are Catholics.

.
 
Holly3278 said:
Hi everyone. First, here are some rules for this thread. First of all, this thread is for Catholics to discuss Pentecostalism and it’s comparisons to the ancient heresy of Montanism. This is not a thread for Pentecostals to come in and argue about how their church cannot be compared to the ancient Montanist heresy. So, Catholics, let’s discuss this! 👍 Can the Pentecostal movement of today be compared to the Montanist heresy of ancient times? :confused:
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God the Holy Spirit is by definition-------God.
 
BTW if you dont want me on her then take it to a Catholic only forum.
Blasphemy against the HS is the unforgivenable sin.
 
AmericanJosiah said:
Yes, most charismatics I know are Catholics.
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oh oki 🙂 thanks for the clarification.
I know of no The Pentecostal Church. Where is it headquartered? I know of some denominations that include some Pentecostal beliefs - such as speaking in tongues, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but PERSONALLY, nearly all I know of with those beliefs and practices are Catholics.
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I don’t think the Pentecostal church has headquarters… or any leadership like bishops etc… each church sort of governs itself. It’s very evangelical Protestant.

there are many Pentecostals out there, I think more than charismatic Catholics; it’s a pretty big denomination
Hisalone said:
BTW if you dont want me on her then take it to a Catholic only forum.
Blasphemy against the HS is the unforgivenable sin.
Click to expand...
who has committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
 
AmericanJosiah said:
Yes, most charismatics I know are Catholics.

I know of no The Pentecostal Church. Where is it headquartered? I know of some denominations that include some Pentecostal beliefs - such as speaking in tongues, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but PERSONALLY, nearly all I know of with those beliefs and practices are Catholics.

.
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Pentecostalism is a general classification for a number of Protestant Churches which grew out of the “Pentecostal” movement. Few today continue to carry the name, although some do (such as “Oneness Pentecostal’s”, a unitarian group within the larger movement).
 
Monica4316 said:
be careful about criticizing something that might be from God
what if it really is Mary?
Click to expand...
I am not the least bit concerned about that.

I would be far more concerned if the apparition claimed to be the Holy Spirit, but that has already been condemned as a heresy by the Fathers of the church (Montanism, as it were).

If I make a mistake about the Holy Theotokos (whether magnifying her role too much ***or ***minimizing her role too much). She is still only a creature of God whom everyone believes loves me and you. Do you think that she is unforgiving, do you think that God is unforgiving?

Without actually having ever met her, I still would feel that she would manifest the principal points of Jesus’ Gospel message in her life quite well.

I do not fear the Holy Theotokos, I have a healthy and proper fear of the Lord our God.

I think the far greater danger is to mistakenly attribute powers to the Holy Theotokos that only God should possess, with nothing more than an apparition’s own claims to support that.
Monica4316 said:
“Blasphemy against the HS is the unforgivenable sin.”
Click to expand...
Perhaps what he means is that it is the Holy Spirit’s role to grant the gift of tongues (Acts 2:4; 10:44-47). Thus criticism of this particular gift may be blasphemous (and the motive behind this thread could be as well). I would have to let this person speak for himself, however, that is not a particular concern of mine.

There is also the separate but serious issue of some people attempting to portray the Holy Theotokos as a ‘spouse’ of the Holy Spirit. Clearly this idea is intended to lend strength to the pronouncements of any apparition that chooses to deliver ‘messages’, because behind this everyone knows (or should know) that this is the Holy Spirit’s special purview.

The Holy Spirit gets kicked around quite a bit. Sometimes unwisely ignored, misrepresented and even presumed upon by people who are trying to support unrelated phenomena.
Click to expand...
 
Monica4316 said:
be careful about criticizing something that might be from God
what if it really is Mary?
Click to expand...
I am not the least bit concerned about that.

I would be far more concerned if the apparition claimed to be the Holy Spirit, but that has already been condemned as a heresy by the Fathers of the church (Montanism, as it were).

If I make a mistake about the Holy Theotokos (minimizing her role too much). She is still only a creature of God whom everyone believes loves me and you. Do you think that she is unforgiving, do you think that God is unforgiving?

Without actually having ever met her, I still would feel that she would manifest the principal points of Jesus’ Gospel message in her life quite well. She would be rather meek and humble as well as very loving.

I do not fear the Holy Theotokos, I have a healthy and proper fear of the Lord our God.

I think the far greater danger is to mistakenly attribute powers to the Holy Theotokos that only God should possess, with nothing more than an apparition’s own claims to support that.
Monica4316 said:
“Blasphemy against the HS is the unforgivenable sin.”
Click to expand...
Perhaps what he means is that it is the Holy Spirit’s role to grant the gift of tongues (Acts 2:4; 10:44-47). Thus criticism of this particular gift may be blasphemous (and the motive behind this thread could be as well). I would have to let this person speak for himself, however, that is not a particular concern of mine.

There is also the separate but serious issue of some people attempting to portray the Holy Theotokos as a ‘spouse’ of the Holy Spirit, as if this were an office. Clearly this idea is intended to lend strength to the pronouncements of any apparition that chooses to deliver ‘messages’, because behind this everyone knows (or should know) that this is the Holy Spirit’s special purview.

The Holy Spirit gets kicked around quite a bit. Sometimes unwisely ignored, misrepresented and even presumed upon by people who are trying to support unrelated phenomena.
Click to expand...
 
Hesychios said:
I do not understand the phrasing of this response. :confused:

I do not have a problem.

You stated: “this thread is for Catholics to discuss Pentecostalism and it’s comparisons to the ancient heresy of Montanism”, but then you give nothing else to support that idea. The thread is going no where.

If you have a thesis, perhaps you could work it out in the Apologetics section.

This is my position:

Montanism purported to be receiving messages from the Divine on how and what we should think and worship It was condemned by the entire church because the Age of Revelation has closed.

Fats forward another 600 years or so, and we can see the same problem manifesting again in the church with the Holy Theotokos personage fronting for the Divine instead of the Holy Spirit.

Same problem, different guise.

The Pentacostal idea doesn’t seem to work, because the “tongues” manifestation doesn’t really communicate, it seems to be unintelligible for the most part, and does not influence the beliefs of the people involved.
Click to expand...
I agree with what you said about the Marian apparitions.

You also had a good synopsis on tongues, tongues are mainly used in worship or private prayer in the pentecostal church along with the Charismatic Catholics. Most people who speak in tongues understand they are speaking mysteries with their spirit to God, a form of prayer, where when you do not have words to express youself in prayer to God, your spirit utters to the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14

Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue **should pray that he may interpret what he says. **

14**For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. **

15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those **who do not understand **say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since **he does not know what you are saying? **

17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

I think it is clear that people may and will use tongues for private prayer and worship. I pray in tongues many times when I worship, I also sing in tongues. I am sure no one around me knows it unless they can hear an utterance under my breath. Paul is stating that you may be giving thanks to God well enough in a tongue, but the people around you may not know the language which you speak and will not be edified and be able to say Amen in agreeance with what you said because it is your spirit uttering mysteries to God.

23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

I believe the verse above shows 2 things. A church can be out of order and people are speaking in tongues outloud with no interpretation in place of an orderly service where everyone can be edified. The bolded part show that SOME WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR SOME UNBELIEVERS may come in and not understand the gift of tongues and think everyone is a mad man. It made it clear that it can confuse UNBELIEVERS and BELEIVERS who have not experienced it before or know about it.

I believe many pentecostal churches abuse tongues and most people on this board are the SOME WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND. Not that you guys are UNBELIEVERS, you are Christians who do not understand and think we are all mad men 🙂
 
1 Corinthians 14

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

A Tongue OR an Interpretation. they do not always go hand in hand.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

If you are going to speak a message in tongues OUT LOUD for all to hear, you must have an interpretation yourself or a known member of the church who Interprets with the gift of Interpretation. If there are many to deliver a message in tongues, keep it to at most 2 or 3 people per church service. Keep it in order, you do not take up the whole time of the service delivering messages with interpretation outloud to the congregation.

28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

This verse goes back to saying that when there is no interpreter where you do not have an interpretation for the tongues yourself or there is no one there with the gift of interpretation, then you will simply keep it to yourself and speak it to God, Let your spirit utter that mystery to God in prayer.

Romans 8:26-27

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

and finally:

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
 
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