Can music exist outside of time?

[GloriousOrder]

You basically borrowed my post, used my theme, added nothing other than Gods voice is music.

Followed by wondering if you are being silly with one eye, the other on self gather. The guise in
humble air…is not without notice in firming up the hopeful sale. Poor marketing in presence of the wise to be most sure…

Offering very little creative impro, we can clearly see that while man is in a sense a committed
and acknowledged copy-cat, we really would be more effective if at least the original was acknowledged allowing for less of the…well,
guise . …in need !..

Please excuse me, but I didn’t read any of the posts in this thread except the O.P.! Using a lot of ellipses and acting mysterious doesn’t really help. What you saw was from my heart, just as you wrote from your own heart. Let’s not accuse one another of stealing joy.

Lets make sure I know what I’m talking about and break down what I believe is guess work in
non-sense…copying my theme without true ability !!!

I did not claim to have any sort of ability. My imagination is very strong after many years of listening to music, looking at paintings, etc., but it’s just something that has grown in me by experience. You don’t have to impress how important and unique you are, because we know you are a beloved human being, made by God for the love of God. Your defensive attitude confuses me, friend… !

G minor…is not as you describe. …] All of these componants need attention in final imaginitive comparison…none of which follow “a dark forest with continued ramblings”

These are my subjective impressions. “Dark, falling leaves in summer” may describe G minor for me, and “warlike drums beating on a battlefield” may describe it for someone else. How can you claim there’s a system of absolute images for each key? Also, why do any components need attention particularly? The regular third of G major can sound “dark”, too, given the dynamics of the piece, and under certain circumstances or harmonic relations the B-flat of G minor can sound “bright”. I’m speaking in terms of singular beauty and isolated chords, expressed as arpeggi or blocks. This is my subjective, inner-most set of images… there’s nothing universal about them.

Shall I go on ?..lets try another, your off on everything. You assign “shining black” to Dflat major
I guess black came to mind because of the key signature. All the flats being black on the keyboard.

All sharps are black on the keyboard… what’s your point? D-flat major, on the keyboard, has one white key (F) and two black keys. Who cares? The sound itself is beautiful in isolation: a major third between 1 and 3, and a minor third between 3 and 5. It’s lovely and has so many symbolic possibilities. There’s really no need to wrangle and become angry just because people commented happily on my post.

I used poetic jargon to express the beauty and joy of music. Getting pedantic just makes everything into cold science.

You really love music don’t you. I do too. What you wrote was simply beautiful. Just wanted to tell you.

God bless and Love you

Music is everything… it’s so amazing. There’s no life without music, just as there is no energy without other human beings around.

 

[4Horsemen]

Though no two chords can ever be heard in isolation (even if they’re really far apart in time it’s just eighty-thousand full rests! ), I always gather a certain impression, image, and colour from one chord. Look into the very depths of your soul, and you will see music. In my opinion, music is not just an aural, temporal medium - but the very essence of God communicated to us in the most sublime, infinite way possible in a non-infinite place.

G minor is a sort of dark green, and always has the quality of a mysterious breeze whistling in quiet arbors that are overhanging public gardens in grand cities at night-time. D major is a pure bright golden-white, and it makes me think of the human soul itself, as a total rational substance and individual nature; it is the very glory of our soul, and the Divinity that made it. C major is a pure lustrous gold, and D-flat major is a shining black, almost like the glint of silver in a dark room. What praises can be said for the blossoming meadows of F major? How can I give all the lauds that are truly due to A major, that realm of blue skies and innocent, nostalgic summer afternoons?

Don’t you see that every last tone and key correlate perfectly to some scene, person, event, animal, or emotion in life? Some of us notice it acutely and some of us only perceive it at a subconscious level, but music communicates something much more than mere floating beats, rhythms, tempi, and harmony. In the echoing festival of a sunny day that is G major, not only is music communicated, but the very palate of our human spirit can almost taste the healing medicine that is God.

I’m being very silly and mystical here, but it seems to me that music is the voice of God. It is not the moral or just or merciful voice of God, commanding us or judging us or having pity on us; no, I mean it is the actual sound of God’s voice, if He could be translated to any media at all! It’s the very depth of joy and the height of truth. When Christ speaks to me, all I hear is music; when I hear music, I hear Christ. Is the blessed Trinity not three-part harmony on one instrument?

Thank God for the gift of music; for its tears and tremours, and for its smiles and jaw-dropping moments.

Splendid! The imagery of the Blessed Trinity with three-part harmony tops is original. Thanks for posting it.

 

[4Horsemen]

My dear friend ,

I’m feeling ok , need a break though. I’ll live , only flu.

I call limbo that state where one has completed purgatory and had the imperfect love in one purified so it is perfect and limbo is the state then of having been made perfect just before you pop into heaven. I see hell sort of down the bottom of the equilibrium of God which is also Gods will if you like , the equilibrium burns the damned with spiritual fire trying to force them to do Gods will which is love but they have no love in them so are stuck in this state , but it can change I’m sure, and will eventually. There are many pains in hell of course though. The equilibrium of God searches you to see if you have love when you leave this world – no love you are in hell , imperfect love and it burns you with spiritual fire to perfect that love , you then hit limbo just before heaven. If you have perfect love you go straight to heaven and the equilibrium is there too , giving you a feeling of reassurance as it moves you to do Gods will and adds to your bliss. That’s it in brief. My understanding is a little different to what you mention, you might see. Hope this helps.

God bless and Love you

John

Looking at the part in bold: First of all, God would never try to “force” someone to do His will. It’s true that in Hell there is no love in those who are “stuck in this state” as you say, but on what do you base your conclusion that “it can change?” Hell is a permanent state. And I can’t see why God would arrange for someone who has just left Purgatory to “pop” into Limbo. This seems to be a theory of your own making it would seem. No?



P.S. Hope you are over the flu. Don’t respond to this post until you are much better.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Looking at the part in bold: First of all, God would never try to “force” someone to do His will. It’s true that in Hell there is no love in those who are “stuck in this state” as you say, but on what do you base your conclusion that “it can change?” Hell is a permanent state. And I can’t see why God would arrange for someone who has just left Purgatory to “pop” into Limbo. This seems to be a theory of your own making it would seem. No?



P.S. Hope you are over the flu. Don’t respond to this post until you are much better.

My dear friend,

I would have to write endless books to explain all , not really apt for a chat room. But I’m going to go further into this on my thread on – does us man and angels , demons really have free will ,on the philosophy thread i’ve got going. I’ll do a lot more work there if you want to see it. Hell is a permanent state and those in there are there forever and all eternity , but that’s in this delusion I’ll go into as said , once we all return to reality it will cease to be and all will be well ,in my humble opinion. It is my own ideas because none have ever known about the delusion and certainly not the ultimate reality i talk about. None of these ideas conflict with or contradict the catholic faith , they just completely perfect it , in my humble opinion. But it takes a long time to pen it all, don’t judge by 2 mins reading please. There is no logic or rational that says I can only produce ideas , theories etc that have precedence. Why do I have to quote someoe or something else , especially if none have ever known what I’m talking about ? I don’t have to. Don’t be quick to judge my work , as the whole picture paints a very different and totally complete picture.

God bless and Love you

John

 

[paduard]

I too think we experience intervals of time in heaven so that we hear not merely an accumulation of various sounds all at once, but time or tempo. Only God, in the “eternal now” can hear all notes at once and yet differentiate them. That idea seems to be in tandem with yours on “interval free” and “interval aware.”

Thank you for that 4Horsemen.

God Bless
Paduard

[the arguments concerning technicalities of music are fascinating - at least to me - but rather out of my depth]

 

[4Horsemen]

My dear friend,

I would have to write endless books to explain all , not really apt for a chat room. But I’m going to go further into this on my thread on – does us man and angels , demons really have free will ,on the philosophy thread i’ve got going. I’ll do a lot more work there if you want to see it. Hell is a permanent state and those in there are there forever and all eternity , but that’s in this delusion I’ll go into as said , once we all return to reality it will cease to be and all will be well ,in my humble opinion. It is my own ideas because none have ever known about the delusion and certainly not the ultimate reality i talk about. None of these ideas conflict with or contradict the catholic faith , they just completely perfect it , in my humble opinion. But it takes a long time to pen it all, don’t judge by 2 mins reading please. There is no logic or rational that says I can only produce ideas , theories etc that have precedence. Why do I have to quote someoe or something else , especially if none have ever known what I’m talking about ? I don’t have to. Don’t be quick to judge my work , as the whole picture paints a very different and totally complete picture.

God bless and Love you

John

Sorry, I don’t mean to judge, just wondering about the origin of your ideas, which I will look forward to reading on your new thread. The ancient philosophers had to be creative to theorize, so why not also be creative?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Looking at the part in bold: First of all, God would never try to “force” someone to do His will. It’s true that in Hell there is no love in those who are “stuck in this state” as you say, but on what do you base your conclusion that “it can change?” Hell is a permanent state. And I can’t see why God would arrange for someone who has just left Purgatory to “pop” into Limbo. This seems to be a theory of your own making it would seem. No?



P.S. Hope you are over the flu. Don’t respond to this post until you are much better.

Do you realize that …“Jesus”… never mentioned the word Hell …once in the Bible .
Hell is a human need for an abundance of ill-will, peculiar within the believer of such a thing.

There is some consideration to Our Lord mentioning it once, by way of some of the translations …however expert opinion is not satisfied with respects to exactly what was being
referred to.

So…your really on your own, apart from “whole” Christian meaning. Those who wish to believe in Hell would be comfortable with the idea. The idea and the "need"is most un-substatiated, and telling in individualistic attraction. Hell is solely a primitive human need which unfortuanately continues to linger . Change will be change …I suppose. Things take time
But know…it is ones quantity of …ill-will, which finds easy rest, in the made made ridiculous idea of hell/

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Please excuse me, but I didn’t read any of the posts in this thread except the O.P.! Using a lot of ellipses and acting mysterious doesn’t really help. What you saw was from my heart, just as you wrote from your own heart. Let’s not accuse one another of stealing joy.

I did not claim to have any sort of ability. My imagination is very strong after many years of listening to music, looking at paintings, etc., but it’s just something that has grown in me by experience. You don’t have to impress how important and unique you are, because we know you are a beloved human being, made by God for the love of God. Your defensive attitude confuses me, friend… !

These are my subjective impressions. “Dark, falling leaves in summer” may describe G minor for me, and “warlike drums beating on a battlefield” may describe it for someone else. How can you claim there’s a system of absolute images for each key? Also, why do any components need attention particularly? The regular third of G major can sound “dark”, too, given the dynamics of the piece, and under certain circumstances or harmonic relations the B-flat of G minor can sound “bright”. I’m speaking in terms of singular beauty and isolated chords, expressed as arpeggi or blocks. This is my subjective, inner-most set of images… there’s nothing universal about them.

All sharps are black on the keyboard… what’s your point? D-flat major, on the keyboard, has one white key (F) and two black keys. Who cares? The sound itself is beautiful in isolation: a major third between 1 and 3, and a minor third between 3 and 5. It’s lovely and has so many symbolic possibilities. There’s really no need to wrangle and become angry just because people commented happily on my post.

I used poetic jargon to express the beauty and joy of music. Getting pedantic just makes everything into cold science.

Music is everything… it’s so amazing. There’s no life without music, just as there is no energy without other human beings around.

Look it …let me expose something. I have been continuously bothered with PM’s by a certain member since my entry describing how individual notes are discerned without observance even when note is out of tune and not within frequency perimeter.

He specifically wanted a list of feelings which properly corresponded to character in notes.
My opinion as to why I would not help him was partially understood and agreed by this member.
Regardless, the persistence continued.

The PM’s have continued right up to today in spite of telling this member that I feel that giving out information for the specific endeavor is…“wrong”…and to desist in the bothersome PM’s

Out of frustration the member informed me that he will get the info one way or another and pursue this un-worthy endeavour…

You mention you only read OP. Your post does not although address time or process as requested in OP. It only mimics an extension of my post…alll the while directly attempting to furnish the bothersome members wrongful curiosity. Its fairly obvious how that came to be.

Fortuanately…none of the data is useful for himself as your idea’s are simply emotionally provoked “individual” preference’s without stability. Daydreaming idea’s which have no substance and are as well transitory to yourself…Not specific realities which are specifically present in sound…

No one likes copy cats, never have and never will. Why don’t you give a kick at the cat with the time question…thats the thread subject. I’m most interested in a real genuine
creativity…what have you got there, lets have a real answer to the OP

 

[4Horsemen]

Do you realize that …“Jesus”… never mentioned the word Hell …once in the Bible .
Hell is a human need for an abundance of ill-will, peculiar within the believer of such a thing.

There is some consideration to Our Lord mentioning it once, by way of some of the translations …however expert opinion is not satisfied with respects to exactly what was being
referred to.

So…your really on your own, apart from “whole” Christian meaning. Those who wish to believe in Hell would be comfortable with the idea. The idea and the "need"is most un-substatiated, and telling in individualistic attraction. Hell is solely a primitive human need which unfortuanately continues to linger . Change will be change …I suppose. Things take time
But know…it is ones quantity of …ill-will, which finds easy rest, in the made made ridiculous idea of hell/

Hell is mentioned in the Bible. Sometimes it is referred to a Sheol or Hades.

Recall what Jesus said:

“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. . .” (Matthew 5:29 KJV) (Jesus goes on in the same vein about the right hand.)

Also, Jesus tells us, “And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)

Those are just a few under the word “hell” in a concordance which lists various sub-topics as:
“Degrees of punishment in”
“Prepared for the devil”
“Visited by Christ”
“Devils confined in, until judgment day”
“Devouring fire”
“Unquenchable fire”
“A furnace of fire”
“Everlasting fire”
“Everlasting torment”
“Fire and brimstoone”
“A lake of fire”

If there is any music at all down there (to get to the OP), I would think it would have to be atonal and chaotic, IOW, noise–like horrible screeching sounds.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Hell is mentioned in the Bible. Sometimes it is referred to a Sheol or Hades.

Recall what Jesus said:

“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. . .” (Matthew 5:29 KJV) (Jesus goes on in the same vein about the right hand.)

Also, Jesus tells us, “And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)

Those are just a few under the word “hell” in a concordance which lists various sub-topics as:
“Degrees of punishment in”
“Prepared for the devil”
“Visited by Christ”
“Devils confined in, until judgment day”
“Devouring fire”
“Unquenchable fire”
“A furnace of fire”
“Everlasting fire”
“Everlasting torment”
“Fire and brimstoone”
“A lake of fire”

If there is any music at all down there (to get to the OP), I would think it would have to be atonal and chaotic, IOW, noise–like horrible screeching sounds.

So…

.“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. . .” (Matthew 5:29 KJV) (Jesus goes on in the same vein about the right hand.)

If one does not pluck the eye out, how can it be factually determined that salvation is without possibility in atonement…? It cannot.

Since it cannot be determined …the casting into hell mentioned above, can ONLY be, the on-going human torment within the life itself.in the state of sin. I don’t believe this can be argued. A clear ratification in the location to be, a living condition of anxiety (hell) .Not an eternal torture chamber which would be favored among the people of the time.

Common sense is important.

Change of mind with respects to required needs and habitually accepted understandings is usually only possible in self life experience. The imagination can be helpful. I already offered my philosophy in this and believe you were present in the thread. So theres no point repeating the rational argument… The soul is actualized & realized proportionately through quality in measure. The soul cannot become defiled by virtue of atonement. It only becomes less in measure. It is the only rational application given the collective gathering of reliable data man knows. Including some of the revelations in Fatima, the idea of hell is in the living out, of
a life in selfishness. Jesus only utters the word hell once in the bible and its argued as to what he is referring to by the experts.Yet believers want to expand on something out of individual need only.

A quantum process in the brain is most likely in motion with respects to how the brain represents time.The reflection may or may not extend an objectivity… .of actual real quantity time… in the perceived notion of the material. This thread question is for science to deal with along with the mechanics of the brain.

 

[4Horsemen]

So…

.“And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. . .” (Matthew 5:29 KJV) (Jesus goes on in the same vein about the right hand.)

If one does not pluck the eye out, how can it be factually determined that salvation is without possibility in atonement…? It cannot.

Since it cannot be determined …the casting into hell mentioned above, can ONLY be, the on-going human torment within the life itself.in the state of sin. I don’t believe this can be argued. A clear ratification in the location to be, a living condition of anxiety (hell) .Not an eternal torture chamber which would be favored among the people of the time.

Common sense is important.

Change of mind with respects to required needs and habitually accepted understandings is usually only possible in self life experience. The imagination can be helpful. I already offered my philosophy in this and believe you were present in the thread. So theres no point repeating the rational argument… The soul is actualized & realized proportionately through quality in measure. The soul cannot become defiled by virtue of atonement. It only becomes less in measure. It is the only rational application given the collective gathering of reliable data man knows. Including some of the revelations in Fatima, the idea of hell is in the living out, of
a life in selfishness. Jesus only utters the word hell once in the bible and its argued as to what he is referring to by the experts.Yet believers want to expand on something out of individual need only.

A quantum process in the brain is most likely in motion with respects to how the brain represents time.The reflection may or may not extend an objectivity… .of actual real quantity time… in the perceived notion of the material. This thread question is for science to deal with along with the mechanics of the brain.

All I can add is that you might read about the Fatima apparitions. Here is a link. Scroll to “The Vision of Hell.”

theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html

 

[FurtherSuntime]

All I can add is that you might read about the Fatima apparitions. Here is a link. Scroll to “The Vision of Hell.”

theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html

Thankyou…Ive read all of it and then some not published. As well, all Lourdes data. Tell me, If hell was a reality do you really think The Blessed Virgin would expose such a thing to children ?
An escorted visit to hell itself, by the Mother of God.

It was a comment with respects to impurity. A comment subject to same tone in translation offered earlier today. I could of course get it out… add other data in support and logically present the true meaning, but you would persist in arguing. I do not normally engage myself in topic’s concerning the devil or hell.

They are not part of my world as neither are required.
There is no need or time for the negativism. . Thats all Ive got to say on this…

 

[4Horsemen]

Thankyou…Ive read all of it and then some not published. As well, all Lourdes data. Tell me, If hell was a reality do you really think The Blessed Virgin would expose such a thing to children ?
An escorted visit to hell itself, by the Mother of God.

It was a comment with respects to impurity. A comment subject to same tone in translation offered earlier today. I could of course get it out… add other data in support and logically present the true meaning, but you would persist in arguing. I do not normally engage myself in topic’s concerning the devil or hell.

They are not part of my world as neither are required.
There is no need or time for the negativism. . Thats all Ive got to say on this…

Then allow me to end this conversation by saying, yes, Hell (or Gehenna, as Jesus refers to it) is a real place in some element of time we don’t understand–like another dimension perhaps.

And, it is God, who revealed this awful truth to the world through His Blessed Mother. The 3 Fatima children were chosen probably because God saw from eternity that they would not shirk from doing His will. And maybe, time and place had something to do with it. The world had become disbelieving in gospel truths. Portugal was being ruled by atheistic leaders. God is giving us every opportunity possible to save the world from annihilation and to save our souls and those of our families and friends. Let us not squander this incredible opportunity.

Re: OP
St. Paul speaks: “Be filled with the Spirit, speaking to each other in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” (Eph.5:18-19)