Can non-Catholics be saints?

[gelsbern]

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People need to pay attention AND BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING LITERALLY when he said THIS IS BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD. UNLESS YOU EAT MY BODY AND DRINK MY BLOOD, YOU WILL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU. … AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.

In post #26, I mentioned the case of the young female student at Columbine who was telling her will-be killer that what he is doing is a sin. In post #26, I also mentioned the case of the Muslim mother trapped in the earthquake ruins who allowed her infant to drink her blood for I think about 3 weeks. Finally they were discovered. Her infant survived. But the muslim mother was already dead.

Yet despite these might deeds, THEY’VE NEVER EATEN CONSECRATED HOSTS NOR DRANK CONSECRATED WINE. THEY MIGHT BE MISSING SOMETHING!!!

When I was a grade school kid, the Catholic Nun told us in class that when we take Holy Communion, the pieces of Consecrated Host will be distributed everywhere in our body. THUS WHEN THE FATHER SEES US, IN US HE SEES HIS SON, BECAUSE THAT CONSECRATED BREAD WILL BE EVERYWHERE IN OUR BODY.

Very interesting take on this but your view brings up a couple of questions.

If a catholic child dies before their first communion does this mean they won’t have life? What of others who recieve baptism in remote areas but are unable to partake in the Eucharist before they die?

Perhaps the Church needs to look at this and define it. If there is BAPTISM of desire, is there EUCHARIST of desire?

 

[Emerald]

If a catholic child dies before their first communion does this mean they won’t have life?

Council of Trent:

If anyone says that communion of the Eucharist is necessary for little children before they have attained the years of discretion, let him be anathema.

 

[The_Eurasian]

Emerald:

Council of Trent:

Emerald

Thanks for this warning by the Council of Trent. This is the first time I heard of it. I’ve been schooled in Catholic schools from grade school to college with lots of religion and theology subjects. But I am just a Catholic laymen and am no expert. If I’ve never heard of it before, especially Jesus himself in the Gospels says "UNLESS YOU EAT MY BODY AND DRINK MY BLOOD YOU SHALL NOT HAVE (ETERNAL) LIFE IN YOU, WHICH EWTN, CATHOLIC PRIESTS, CATHOLIC WRITERS, CATHOLIC SPEAKERS STRESS, THEN MILLIONS OF CATHOLICS I’M SURE ALSO HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT THIS COUNCIL OF TRENT WARNING OF “ANATHEAMA”. Can a person be anathema if he LACKS FULL KNOWLEDGE TO COMMIT MORTAL SIN? Most of what I read from the Bible are only the words of Jesus in red in 2 of the Gospels which I read without reading the words that were in black. Could it be possible I might run afoul with the last verses of Revelations which warns about people eliminating things in the bible? Reading only the RED portions of the bible gave me the experience AS THOUGH JESUS WAS TALKING TO ME DIRECTLY INSTEAD OF THROUGH THE APOSTLE GOSPEL WRITER.

I sure do appreciate your warning on the Council of Trent because I do have 2 siblings who were born STILLBIRTH, meaning they were born dead. Does the warning by the Council of Trent mean that the souls of my 2 siblings are in Heaven??? That the souls and fetuses and children who died before the age of discretion ARE IN HEAVEN, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEIR PARENTS ARE PAGANS, ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS, NON-CHRISTIANS, BUDDHISTS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, PROTESTANTS, NON-CATHOLICS, OR CATHOLICS?
The warning you cited from the Council of Trent does say, “AGE OF DISCRETION,”

 

[The_Eurasian]

gelsbern -----from Post# 41:

Very interesting take on this but your view brings up a couple of questions.

If a catholic child dies before their first communion does this mean they won’t have life? What of others who recieve baptism in remote areas but are unable to partake in the Eucharist before they die?

Perhaps the Church needs to look at this and define it. If there is BAPTISM of desire, is there EUCHARIST of desire?

Emerald, Gelsbem, Catholic Church Authorities

Everyday, the bodies of people die. And most of them are not Catholics. I myself have relatives who died and are not Catholics, and not even Christians.

From Emerald’s warning on the Council of Trent, THOSE HUMANS WHO DIED BEFORE THE AGE OF DISCRETION ARE sAINTS (SAINTS SPELLED WITH A small “s”)

But what about NON-CATHOLICS and NON-CHRISTIANS WHO ARE OVER THE AGE OF DISCRETION WHO TRIED TO FOLLOW THEIR CONSCIENCE ? TRIED TO BE A GOOD PERSON.???

The CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT EVEN THE SMALLEST PARTICLE OF the catholic priest CONSECRATED BREAD is not only the Body but is the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, AND DIVINITY OF CHRIST.

So also with the catholic priest CONSECRATED WINE, THE TINIEST DROPLET OF THE CONSECRATED WINE IS CHRIST, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, DIVINITY.

In fact in the Catholic Church, IT IS HERESY TO BELIEVE THAT THE CONSECRATED BREAD IS NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. THEY SAY and I say and believe THAT EACH PARTICLE IS THE FULL CHRIST, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, DIVINITY.

COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT A PERSON WHO DESIRES OR LONGS FOR CHRIST, TRIES AND TRIES TO LIVE THE LIFE OF A GOOD PERSON, THAT CHRIST MIGHT COME IN, AND IN SO DOING, THE PERSON HAS RECEIVED AND HAS BECOME A LIVING TABERNACLE, A LIVING MONSTRANCE NOT ONLY OF CHRIST, HIS SOUL AND DIVINITY BUT ALSO CHRIST’S BODY AND BLOOD---- thus fulfilling the requirement of “Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have (eternal) life in you.”? This way, the Columbine girl, by her desire and last act of making Christ her Lord, could it be possible that she was in effect consuming in her body the body and blood of the Lord?

But looking at Lincoln’s post, Lincoln’s post does say that what is noticable is that “ALL THE INCORRUPT BODIES ARE ALWAYS CATHOLICS.”

It would be interesting if God will leave some of the MARTYRS IN UGANDA AND/OR THEIR COMAPANIONS INCORRUPT. SOME WERE CATHOLICS. SOME WERE NOT. BUT THEY ALL DIED PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL DEATHS.

In my desire to save souls of non-catholics and non-christians, I might run afoul with God’s will or Church teachings because as a human I do make mistakes and from my mistakes I learn, but always Father, not my will, BUT THY WILL, OH FATHER, BE DONE, IN JESUS NAME I PRAY."
By the way, the Catholic Church does practice what’s called “SPIRITUAL COMMUNION”

You’ll hear it at EWTN in those TV MASSES where at Communion time they’ll smething like, " For those who cannot take the Body and Blood of the Lord: Lord, come into my body, SPIRITUALLY.

I ask this to my assistant Pastor, a Roman Catholic Priest, and he said, THAT’S NOTHING!!!

The other priest in Fr. Trujillo’s EWTN Program also said that HE CANNOT IMAGINE SOMEBODY IN MORTAL SIN WANTING TO TAKE SPIRITUAL COMMUNION BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A SACRILAGE!!!

 

[Emerald]

Thanks for this warning by the Council of Trent.

Trent is great reading, now more than ever. Browse through some of it; no doubt it will be incredibly eye-opening and helpful, especially for anyone unfortunate to have been schooled in Catholic schools their whole life. Reading the great texts of the Catholic Church can undo much of the bad theology we’ve all been exposed to over the years.

Can a person be anathema if he LACKS FULL KNOWLEDGE TO COMMIT MORTAL SIN?

Don’t worry, you’re not “anathema” for having innocently wondered over the subject. “Anathema” would be reserved for those who decided that that’s going to be their position despite what the Church has to say about it. This would be clearly an act of the will on their part, being anathema… they would have chosen to hold something against the Church. A person who has heard that his idea is “anathema” and as a result, jumps away from his idea and renounces it, that person is fine.

But since you’ve brought it up, think about this: if what is popularly described as “full knowledge” is necessary for a sin to be mortal, then the resulting absurdity would be this: “Only Catholics can commit mortal sins”. In fact, not even all Catholics, but, only those are are catechized.

But this statement, of course, is absurd. A whole world full of people commit mortal sins every day, as we all know, while not even knowing there is a term called “mortal sin”. It is in fact the case that a sin can be mortal without the sinner having “absolute, full knowledge”, however we wish to define that term.

Most of what I read from the Bible are only the words of Jesus in red in 2 of the Gospels which I read without reading the words that were in black. Could it be possible I might run afoul with the last verses of Revelations which warns about people eliminating things in the bible?

Not a chance.

I sure do appreciate your warning on the Council of Trent because I do have 2 siblings who were born STILLBIRTH, meaning they were born dead. Does the warning by the Council of Trent mean that the souls of my 2 siblings are in Heaven???

No. But it doesn’t mean they are suffering Hellfire either. God’s perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Everything works out perfectly. It’s not up to us, though, to believe whatever appeals to our sentiments… we can’t just decide what happens to cases like your situation (I have some like that too) because they appeal to our highly weakened minds and hearts.

That the souls and fetuses and children who died before the age of discretion ARE IN HEAVEN, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEIR PARENTS ARE PAGANS, ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS, NON-CHRISTIANS, BUDDHISTS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, PROTESTANTS, NON-CATHOLICS, OR CATHOLICS?

Of course not, because of Original Sin. The remedy for Original Sin, of course, is baptism.

 

[The_Eurasian]

Emerald -----from Post #45:

Trent is great reading, now more than ever. Browse through some of it; no doubt it will be incredibly eye-opening and helpful, especially for anyone unfortunate to have been schooled in Catholic schools their whole life. Reading the great texts of the Catholic Church can undo much of the bad theology we’ve all been exposed to over the years.

Don’t worry, you’re not “anathema” for having innocently wondered over the subject. “Anathema” would be reserved for those who decided that that’s going to be their position despite what the Church has to say about it. This would be clearly an act of the will on their part, being anathema… they would have chosen to hold something against the Church. A person who has heard that his idea is “anathema” and as a result, jumps away from his idea and renounces it, that person is fine.

But since you’ve brought it up, think about this: if what is popularly described as “full knowledge” is necessary for a sin to be mortal, then the resulting absurdity would be this: “Only Catholics can commit mortal sins”. In fact, not even all Catholics, but, only those are are catechized.

But this statement, of course, is absurd. A whole world full of people commit mortal sins every day, as we all know, while not even knowing there is a term called “mortal sin”. It is in fact the case that a sin can be mortal without the sinner having “absolute, full knowledge”, however we wish to define that term.

Not a chance.

No. But it doesn’t mean they are suffering Hellfire either. God’s perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Everything works out perfectly. It’s not up to us, though, to believe whatever appeals to our sentiments… we can’t just decide what happens to cases like your situation (I have some like that too) because they appeal to our highly weakened minds and hearts.

Of course not, because of Original Sin. The remedy for Original Sin, of course, is baptism.

Emerald

Thanks Emerald and I really mean it and May God Bless You because. I’d rather believe and say I am ignorant and don’t know what I am doing than be anathema. As Jesus said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing. Also in another verse, he said something like this: Since you insist on saying that you know, your sin remains.
My siblings who were dead before their births were never baptized. I don’t even know where their bodies are because at that time the Catholic Church would not even give a Catholic burial to such. But you say that they will be neither in heaven nor in hell. This kind of place or condition the Catholic Church calls “Limbo”

Of course, if they were born alive, my Catholic parents would have had them baptized.

In the case of the souls of non-christian fetuses that died before their births, they too were never baptized. One difference, however, is that one or both parents were never baptized. A second difference is that the parents most likely would never have had the child baptized even if it were born alive. But having been dead before they were born, WILL THE DEPARTED FETUSES OF NON-CHRISTIANS END UP IN LIMBO? Like the souls in purgatory, all of who will sooner or later be in heaven, will the souls of these dead non-christian fetuses end up as sAINTS in heaven too, after doing time in limbo?

I know there is a verse in the Gospels where Jesus warns about teaching little children to sin because the angels of these little ones are in the presence of God or something like that.
On the “FULL KNOWLEDGE THING”, how about if one counters with the verse which says: TO THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN MORE, MORE WILL BE EXPECTED; TO THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN LESS, LESS IS EXPECTED.

 

[Emerald]

Thanks Emerald and I really mean it and May God Bless You because.

Thank the Church! lol. I appreciate it, but I’d just point to the Church. Really, take some time to sift through the Council of Trent, easily available online. It may help to think of the “anathemas” not so much as things meant to invoke fear, but as super-helpful agents which direct one to the truth. Imagine your journey in learning the Faith as a maze, and a loving God that slams shut the passages in that maze that’ll lead to error, thereby making your education easier and more direct. The anathemas are that very “door slamming” act of tough love from God through the agency of His Church.

I’d rather believe and say I am ignorant and don’t know what I am doing than be anathema.

Unless anyone has an attitude similar to yours, they’ll get nowhere. It’s a good attitude. You might possibly understand it as a certain innocence as opposed to ignorance. The kind of innocence which one might indicate in the use of the phrase “Faith seeking understanding”. To be humbly submissive before God and His truth, “like little children”, is an absolute prerequisite for eternal life.

My siblings who were dead before their births were never baptized. I don’t even know where their bodies are because at that time the Catholic Church would not even give a Catholic burial to such. But you say that they will be neither in heaven nor in hell. This kind of place or condition the Catholic Church calls “Limbo”

Well technically speaking, Limbo is a part of Hell, not a “third place”. But don’t let that make you think the worst… hold on, because it isn’t as bad as it first sounds. The Church has always taught that the punishments of Hell are varied in degree according to the just judgments of God for each individual soul. That Limbo is “a part of Hell” does not necessarily mean that it includes the corporal punishments, the “fires” of Hell. It would merely mean and absence of the Beatific Vision, or the seeing of God as He is.

Also, the are two divisions in Limbo, according to tradition: the Limbus Patrum or the “Limbo of the Fathers” where the souls of the justified of the Old Testament resided until the redemptive act of Christ was complete, and the other which is the Limbo of the infants. The Limbo of the Fathers is specifically where Christ decended when it says in our Creed that “He descended into Hell…” He went to retrieve the souls of the justified souls, and to lead them into Heaven, Christ entering first of course, and this crowd of souls behind Him.

The other division is the Limbo of the infants, those who have died without baptism, but who have committed no Actual Sins. For certainly, such souls would not be punished for Actual Sins which they have not committed; however, the issue of Original Sin remains. No one can say, without violating the very dogma of the Church and the words of Christ Himself, that anyone can enter into the Kingdom of God without having been attached to the Mystical Body of Christ through baptism.

Of course, if they were born alive, my Catholic parents would have had them baptized.

No doubt; same situation here, as my wife and I have lost two babies to miscarriage. But we know God is all merciful and all just. However things stand with these two souls, all is well.

On the “FULL KNOWLEDGE THING”, how about if one counters with the verse which says: TO THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN MORE, MORE WILL BE EXPECTED; TO THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN LESS, LESS IS EXPECTED.

Absolutely. This means that any Catholics out there who know their faith well, but do not live every moment as if it were their last, have not renounced the goods of this life, do not pray, do not make small sacrifices, do not instruct their children in the Faith… the list goes on…

Yes, these people are in serious violation of the incredible gift of the Catholic Faith, and better hurry up to live for God and nothing else. Or else it is going to be a very, very disappointing day, the day which they stand before Christ and render an account in light of the great gift of the Faith which they have been given, which in fact, no person really deserves. =)

 

[gelsbern]

I am glad the discussion continued, I find it better to just ask questions to let people learn for themselves. That’s why I asked them. I knew what the answers were, but I know I hate being spoon fed by others and thought that by throwing the questions out there, that the truth would be discoved.

 

[June1945]

To be a Saint one simply accepts the salvation that JESUS provided for us at the cross. We MUST be perfect to go to heaven and that is WHY HE came to save us. HE gives us the gift of HIS righteousness when we are washed in HIS blood to be saved.
Being a protestant or catholic does not make a Saint----it is the righteousness of Christ which makes a Saint of God
June