Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?

[Randy_Carson]

If one is a Christian at all, one is, as Lumen Gentium says, in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.” For the Church is the company of the saved. To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water. It is the logical consequence of Jesus’ statement, “He who is not with me is against me” (Mt 12:30).

It therefore follows that to be subject to the gospel to any degree is to be in union, to that degree, with the office of Peter, since the office of Peter was created by Christ for one purpose only: to help bring people into subjection to Christ. It is therefore impossible to accept Christ without accepting the authority of Peter’s office to some degree or other. If you say to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” you are submitting to the judgment of Peter, who said it first (Mt 16:16). If you declare that salvation is by grace through Christ, you are again subjecting yourself to Peter, who was the first to say that by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:11). If you teach that Jesus is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, you are simply agreeing with what the Church in council and in union with the office of Peter has always taught. If you acknowledge the canonicity of the New Testament books, you are likewise submitting to the judgment of the Petrine office, which made that call in the fourth century and ratified it in the 16th. In short, it is not possible to be a Christian at all without already submitting (whether you realize it or not and whether you like it or not) to Peter in precisely the sense that *Unam Sanctam *speaks of.

from:

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

 

[arwenEvenstar]

That’s sounds like a very logical argument based on certain premises you consider as absolute Truth from your biblical interpretation and understanding of tradition.

You are basically saying that protestants cannot know christ because they don’t accept the petrine doctrine. So is this basic doctrine a requirement of salvation?

Well, i came to know our living god as a 17 yr. old punk who through a crisis, called out to him. I opened up the scriptures and the truth of the gospel was revealed to me. On that day, God performed a miracle and delivered me cold turkey from drug addiction and habitual sin. I knew nothing of doctrines or lofty arguments, but one thing i did come to know was the simple message of the gospel truth. My entire life was changed on that day and i KNOW i was saved from the moment i uttered those words: “yes, lord…you are the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but through you…You are the messiah, the annointed one of god from whose stripes we are healed”. I said yes, to god, counted the cost and followed christ from that day forward.

I was raised in the catholic church and never knew or understood the gospel. Back then i was just a kid and my family were holiday catholics, who agreed with certain doctrines, considered themselves Catholics, but never knew God or the gospel for that matter.

My spiritual conversion occurred outside the Catholic church. I was baptized, did my communion and was confirmed in the Catholic faith, but i never knew god or even understood the gospel. My faith was strengthened and nurtured in protestant circles and even though, i have now come back to Catholicism, i don’t consider myself anymore saved now than i was back then.

It’s funny to me how certain protestants used to tell me that catholics couldn’t be saved due to their erroneous interpretations of scripture or their “works” oriented salvation and now you’re saying the same thing. Though i now am part of the catholic community and submit to the church even if i don’t agree with every jot and tittle of every doctrine or dogma, i do believe that only God knows our hearts and salvation comes only from christ and how God chooses to reveal himself to us…whether catholic or protestant, it is presumptuous and arrogant, imo, to determine who is or is not saved especially when both groups agree upon basic christian truths and the apostles creed. You and they can quote scripture all you want taking things in and out of context to support your arguments, but you know a tree by it’s fruit and my life is a testament to god’s revelation of christ to me even when i was outside the church.
god bless you and keep you
peace

 

[distracted]

do you think that those who do not attend any church service but who live a good life and go by the law that is in their conscience… but are ignorant of Christianity, to some degree or another… can be saved?

i know of peole who are burnt out on Christiantiy… i would have been one of them if i hadn’tfound the Church but as you know many do not hear good things about Ctholicism… and so dont investigate it. they hear nothing but garbage about the RCC and so, they stay away… and if i believe what a lot them believe, i would too… if i hand’t been raided in the Church.

 

[distracted]

. Though i now am part of the catholic community and submit to the church even if i don’t agree with every jot and tittle of every doctrine or dogma, i do believe that only God knows our hearts and salvation comes only from christ and how God chooses to reveal himself to us…peace

God did not establish a Church that would error. God doesn’t do things like that. Jesus said that He would never leave nor forsake us (St Mt 28:20 and others)… He has stayed with us via the Real Presence, which abides in our Church at all times and has been there since Day One of the Church’s beginnings when Christ asceneded.

***We can either trust this Church to always teach absolute moral truth or we cannot. ***

again, it is illogical that God would estalish a Church on Earth and let there be any way at al that humans could mess it up… He protects his Church from the very gates of Hell…

(St Mt 16:18)… If we could not believe this… we could not absolutely believe anything… having to do with salvation… etc.

 

[gearhead]

If one is a Christian at all, one is, as Lumen Gentium says, in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.”

Does the Catholic Church actually teach that?

I remember a line from the Catechism that goes something like “God instituted the Sacraments, but He is not bound by them.” Wouldn’t that make the Church’s position more like “outside the Church, there is as much salvation as God wills”?

 

[arwenEvenstar]

So are you saying that the Catholic church in all its history has never been erroneous?
So was the inquisition and crusades God’s will? Were indulgences and all the masacres on both sides (protestants and catholics) done in the name of christ part of God’s plan? Are you not aware of some incredibly corrupt popes in early church history? Are humans not infallible? Heck, even Peter got blasted by Paul when he sided with certain christian jews who were enforcing the gentiles to follow the law and get circumcized as adults.

Christ did establish the church, but remember that the body of christ is also made up of fallible humans. The church is not this separate disembodied deity where upon my salvation depends on. Christ is the head of the church and though i trust god to work through the members of his body, i don’t automatically think my salvation or relationship with god is threatened if certain members or leaders of the church choose to err and commit heinous sins. The church has changed certain beliefs through out the centuries such as unbaptized babies in purgatory etc, so are you saying that just cause certain reforms or doctrinal changes have occurred i should now not believe in anything absolute having to do with salvation?
ok, if YOU say so, i guess my conversion experience and love for christ was just an illusion on my part. All those people i led to christ and all those good works and prayers were all from who, Satan?

I’d rather not debate this issue with you as i see you’re very black and white about it all. It’s fruitless to continue. They will know we are christians by our love. Without the love of christ, we are nothing.

 

[paul_c]

This is a very interesting and worthy topic and it in some way is related to the balance between justice and mercy. You see, Protestant’s seem to believe in an infinitely merciful God, that will not hold an individual accountable for his personal sins as long as he proclaims Jesus his Lord and Savior. In Catholicism, this is tempered by the recognition of a Just God, who will judge us on our actions. This is not to say that Catholics don’t recognize God’s mercy, we do. We know that on our own we can never be worthy of eternal life and that it is throughh God’s mercy that anyone is saved. We just believe that we need to do our part and cooperate with that mercy to be saved.

Now, the philosophical question: how does perfect mercy and perfect justice relate to each other? Because after all, we believe that this is the case, just as we believe that man can have Free will without impeding God’s ability to execute his plan for the world.
Is perfect mercy excusing everyone’s sins? and Can that be consistent with perfect justice? Or is perfect mercy simply giving everyone a chance to be saved? Is this not more consistent with perfect justice? Maybe the intersection of perfect mercy and perfect justice is that Everyone has a chance and then they are judged based on what they do with that chance .

Now granted, none of us are in a position to really understand this mystery and none of us are insightful enough to accurately judge a man’s heart. We don’t understand what choices a man really get’s to make in this life nor what God’s expectations are for us individually. So what should we do? Follow Christ to the best of our ability . Can you be saved by following other Christian (and even non-Christian) traditions? Perhaps. It depends on the God’s grading scale and we don’t know what it is. But your best chance is to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, passed on from Christ by the apostles.

ArwenEvenstar, your witness is compelling, but perhaps you are misreading it. God saved you, its understood, but he also brought you back to the full truth of the Catholic Church, where hopefully it will be completed. That is true for many on these pages, including many of the Protestants who simply started here to debate, never realizing that they were being drawn by the Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church. The hope of every Catholic should be that everyone is drawn by God into loving Communion with the Church, even if it be on their deathbed.

One thing I must admit I struggle with is how to feel about those that are given every chance to convert to following Christ but do not. Does love of neighbor compell me to pray for them to go to heaven anyway? Or is that inconsistent with witnessing to the one true faith and is it praying against justice?

 

[paul_c]

Does the Catholic Church actually teach that?

I remember a line from the Catechism that goes something like “God instituted the Sacraments, but He is not bound by them.” Wouldn’t that make the Church’s position more like “outside the Church, there is as much salvation as God wills”?

That is true. God can do whatever he wills and we believe that his judgement and mercy are perfect, but we don’t know what that means for each individual because we don’t have God’s insight.

 

[paul_c]

So are you saying that the Catholic church in all its history has never been erroneous?
So was the inquisition and crusades God’s will? Were indulgences and all the masacres on both sides (protestants and catholics) done in the name of christ part of God’s plan? Are you not aware of some incredibly corrupt popes in early church history? Are humans not infallible? Heck, even Peter got blasted by Paul when he sided with certain christian jews who were enforcing the gentiles to follow the law and get circumcized as adults.

Christ did establish the church, but remember that the body of christ is also made up of fallible humans. The church is not this separate disembodied deity where upon my salvation depends on. Christ is the head of the church and though i trust god to work through the members of his body, i don’t automatically think my salvation or relationship with god is threatened if certain members or leaders of the church choose to err and commit heinous sins. The church has changed certain beliefs through out the centuries such as unbaptized babies in purgatory etc, so are you saying that just cause certain reforms or doctrinal changes have occurred i should now not believe in anything absolute having to do with salvation?
ok, if YOU say so, i guess my conversion experience and love for christ was just an illusion on my part. All those people i led to christ and all those good works and prayers were all from who, Satan?

I’d rather not debate this issue with you as i see you’re very black and white about it all. It’s fruitless to continue. They will know we are christians by our love. Without the love of christ, we are nothing.

I think you are reading more into Randy’s comment than he meant. He said all come to Christ through the church and indeed they do. If they are bible Christians, they got their bible from the Church, for instance. I don’t think he says that the church hasn’t been blemished with corruption. We know it has. But God’s plan uses that. the Reformation let to Trent and the Counter Reformation and improved the church immensely, after all. The cruscades paved the way to the Renaissance in Europe. We just don’t always see how these things work into the sum of God’s plan because our insight isn’t great enough.

And your conversion experience and love for Christ were not an illusion and eventually led you back to the church, right?

 

[distracted]

Does the Catholic Church actually teach that?

I remember a line from the Catechism that goes something like “God instituted the Sacraments, but He is not bound by them.” Wouldn’t that make the Church’s position more like “outside the Church, there is as much salvation as God wills”?

outside the Church, there is as much salvation as HUMANS will

God damns no one … but He does allow people to damn themselves…

 

[distracted]

So are you saying that the Catholic church in all its history has never been erroneous?
So was the inquisition and crusades God’s will? Were indulgences and all the masacres on both sides (protestants and catholics) done in the name of christ part of God’s plan? Are you not aware of some incredibly corrupt popes in early church history? Are humans not infallible? .

the Church members are fallible and the pope also is fallible…

but he is NOT fallible whne defining doctrine that is to be believed by all Crhistains… When he procliams this kind of thing (ex-cathedra) he is infallible… God does not let fallible human beings teach fallible doctrines but he does allow fallible humans to proclaim infallible truth…

for example a person could be commitng the sin of self-gratification (impure acts w/ self) … let’s say a pope was doing that… and yet he found he had to address this problem in an ex-cathedra statement… He can easily see tht just becuase he had a bad habit of doing this sin, that doesn’t mean it is right for him to condone it and not speak out against it in his ex cathedra statement…

you do this all the time… You preach wht you do not alwys practice… its called being human…

 

[paul_c]

outside the Church, there is as much salvation as HUMANS will

God damns no one … but He does allow people to damn themselves…

Okay. let me ask you a practical question, one Catholic to another, and by the way, I agree that God allows people to Damn themselves. How do you feel about a close relative, who died a Protestant and seemingly led a good life… Do you just assume they damned themselves by not converting or do you hope they are forgiven anyway.

 

[jackregnier]

That’s sounds like a very logical argument based on certain premises you consider as absolute Truth from your biblical interpretation and understanding of tradition.

You are basically saying that protestants cannot know christ because they don’t accept the petrine doctrine. So is this basic doctrine a requirement of salvation?

Well, i came to know our living god as a 17 yr. old punk who through a crisis, called out to him. I opened up the scriptures and the truth of the gospel was revealed to me. On that day, God performed a miracle and delivered me cold turkey from drug addiction and habitual sin. I knew nothing of doctrines or lofty arguments, but one thing i did come to know was the simple message of the gospel truth. My entire life was changed on that day and i KNOW i was saved from the moment i uttered those words: “yes, lord…you are the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but through you…You are the messiah, the annointed one of god from whose stripes we are healed”. I said yes, to god, counted the cost and followed christ from that day forward.

I was raised in the catholic church and never knew or understood the gospel. Back then i was just a kid and my family were holiday catholics, who agreed with certain doctrines, considered themselves Catholics, but never knew God or the gospel for that matter.

My spiritual conversion occurred outside the Catholic church. I was baptized, did my communion and was confirmed in the Catholic faith, but i never knew god or even understood the gospel. My faith was strengthened and nurtured in protestant circles and even though, i have now come back to Catholicism, i don’t consider myself anymore saved now than i was back then.

It’s funny to me how certain protestants used to tell me that catholics couldn’t be saved due to their erroneous interpretations of scripture or their “works” oriented salvation and now you’re saying the same thing. Though i now am part of the catholic community and submit to the church even if i don’t agree with every jot and tittle of every doctrine or dogma, i do believe that only God knows our hearts and salvation comes only from christ and how God chooses to reveal himself to us…whether catholic or protestant, it is presumptuous and arrogant, imo, to determine who is or is not saved especially when both groups agree upon basic christian truths and the apostles creed. You and they can quote scripture all you want taking things in and out of context to support your arguments, but you know a tree by it’s fruit and my life is a testament to god’s revelation of christ to me even when i was outside the church.
god bless you and keep you
peace

uch::hypno: I liked your post. I also had to outside the Catholic church to find out to be saved. For sure, the Word of God tells us. It says, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, it says we are saved by grace through faith, and it says we must believe and confess that God raised from the dead, we will be saved.

Some say, I must be a Catholic to be saved. Where does it say that? Actually, no church can save me. It’s all about what Jesus did for me. It’s not about religion, taking of sacraments, being good or moral, and orthodoxy of faith. It’'s about a relationship with the One who can save us. Praise God:thumbsup::clapping::clapping:
Peace, Jack

 

[Carlan]

Hello every one, I would like to post exactly what the CCC say about Christians being saved out side the Catholic Church, our separated brothers.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.
He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.
Hence they could not be saved who,** knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: **Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those ***"who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, ***communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[distracted]

Okay. let me ask you a practical question, one Catholic to another, and by the way, I agree that God allows people to Damn themselves. How do you feel about a close relative, who died a Protestant and seemingly led a good life… Do you just assume they damned themselves by not converting or do you hope they are forgiven anyway.

insufficent data… i woiuld have to be God to know that…

a person must be Catholic to be saved… this could mean Catholic in his heart and/or Catholic formally, which is best, of course…

protesants spend more time in purgatory than Catholics…

so they should join the Church

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by paul c
Okay. let me ask you a practical question, one Catholic to another, and by the way, I agree that God allows people to Damn themselves. How do you feel about a close relative, who died a Protestant and seemingly led a good life… Do you just assume they damned themselves by not converting or do you hope they are forgiven anyway.

The Catholic Church would not damn such a relative. All judgment is for God alone when it comes to our separated brothers.Carlan

 

[Randy_Carson]

So are you saying that the Catholic church in all its history has never been erroneous?

The Church has never erred when formally teaching on matters of faith and morals, Arwen. She is protected from error by the gift of infallibility which does NOT mean that she knows all the answers or will always do the right thing; it means that she CANNOT teach false doctrine because Jesus, the Good Shepherd, will not allow His flock to be led astray.

I’d rather not debate this issue with you as i see you’re very black and white about it all. It’s fruitless to continue. They will know we are christians by our love. Without the love of christ, we are nothing.

Oh…okay.

 

[elvisman]

So are you saying that the Catholic church in all its history has never been erroneous?
So was the inquisition and crusades God’s will? Were indulgences and all the masacres on both sides (protestants and catholics) done in the name of christ part of God’s plan? Are you not aware of some incredibly corrupt popes in early church history? Are humans not infallible? Heck, even Peter got blasted by Paul when he sided with certain christian jews who were enforcing the gentiles to follow the law and get circumcized as adults.

Christ did establish the church, but remember that the body of christ is also made up of fallible humans. The church is not this separate disembodied deity where upon my salvation depends on. Christ is the head of the church and though i trust god to work through the members of his body, i don’t automatically think my salvation or relationship with god is threatened if certain members or leaders of the church choose to err and commit heinous sins. The church has changed certain beliefs through out the centuries such as unbaptized babies in purgatory etc, so are you saying that just cause certain reforms or doctrinal changes have occurred i should now not believe in anything absolute having to do with salvation?
ok, if YOU say so, i guess my conversion experience and love for christ was just an illusion on my part. All those people i led to christ and all those good works and prayers were all from who, Satan?

I’d rather not debate this issue with you as i see you’re very black and white about it all. It’s fruitless to continue. They will know we are christians by our love. Without the love of christ, we are nothing.

The Scriptures teach that Jesus identifies his very self with his Church. He and his Church cannot be separated. His Church doesn’t err. Men in the history of the Church have erred. However, the Church is kept free from error by the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised (John 16:12-15).

**The Inquisitions were a matter of state - not Church-sanctioned. Study your history. The selling of indulgences was never sanctioned by the Church - men within the Church brought this about. The Church can never be wrong on matters of faith amd morals - NEVER. If she IS wrong, then Jesus is a liar because he is the Head of the Body.

The Scriptures also teach that salvation is a process - not a slam-dunk, one-time event. I’m sure you felt the presence of Christ and had a rebirth of sorts, but the Bible is clear on what being “reborn” is.
It is through Baptism - not a feeling or a burning in the bosom (Acts 22:16, Matt. 28:19, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Rom. 6: 3-4, Gal. 3:27, Eph. 4:5, Col. 2:11-12, 1 Pet. 3:21).

**Lastly - we are not saved until we endure to the end and finish the race **
(Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:26-27, Matt. 7:21, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 5:13, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:27)****.

 

[elvisman]

uch::hypno: I liked your post. I also had to outside the Catholic church to find out to be saved. For sure, the Word of God tells us. It says, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, it says we are saved by grace through faith, and it says we must believe and confess that God raised from the dead, we will be saved.

Some say, I must be a Catholic to be saved. Where does it say that? Actually, no church can save me. It’s all about what Jesus did for me. It’s not about religion, taking of sacraments, being good or moral, and orthodoxy of faith. It’'s about a relationship with the One who can save us. Praise God:thumbsup::clapping::clapping:

Peace, Jack

You’re right about one thing: No church can save you.

**Catholics don’t claim this. We are not saved BY the Church - we are saved THROUGH the Church (Matt, 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23, 1 Tim. 3:15).

**We are not saved merely by “believing” either. You must take the Scriptures in context - not building doctrines on seemingly contradictory passages. they must be read and understood in CONTEXT. **
As for the verses you quoted - the Bible also says the following:

Matt. 7:21
Not everyonewho says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Cor. 9:27
I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

2 Peter 2:26-27
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

Romans 11:22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.**

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

Yes, non Catholics can be saved, anyone can become Catholic.