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Abu
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Mystic Banana
The evidence is in my posts on this thread.
All who are saved are saved through Christ’s Church. It is very difficult to be saved without the sacraments and graces that are available to Catholics who are faihful. It may be even more difficult for those Catholics who did believe but then chose to dissent and to act, speak and write against truth.
The evidence is in my posts on this thread.
All who are saved are saved through Christ’s Church. It is very difficult to be saved without the sacraments and graces that are available to Catholics who are faihful. It may be even more difficult for those Catholics who did believe but then chose to dissent and to act, speak and write against truth.
K
kage_ar
Guest
If one jumps from an areoplane without a parachute, will he live?
It is not impossible - it is hightly improbable…
It is not impossible - it is hightly improbable…
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Mystic_Banana
Guest
Ah - but the question is, if this is all true, is it *possible * to be saved without being a member of the Catholic Church? If the answer is no, then you have the moral issue of - how can it be fair for those who have no access to the Catholic Church? They are doomed to Hell, surely!
Historical Papal support for the stance - that’s what I’m after…
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Mystic_Banana
Guest
Thing is, what about those with no access to the Church? I am not questioning the value of evangelization. I’m questioning whether it’s reasonable whether it’s fair for those who have no access to the Catholic Church to be damned (or, more pressingly, *to have been *damned) without any option!
A
Abu
Guest
Yes, of course some of those who are not baptised and faithful members of the Catholic Church may be saved – my posts show that, and here is more evidence from the Last Ecumenical Council (Vatican II) approved by Pope Paul VI.
Catholics must accept the teaching of Christ’s Church, and learn what it means. Thus the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) # 16, Vatican II, teaches:
“Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since He gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. 19
[19. See Epist. Of the Sacred Cong. Of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston: Denz. 3869-72].
“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel 20 and given by Him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
[20. See Eusebius of Caesarea, *Praeparatio Evangelica, I, 1: PG 21,28].
“Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mk 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions.”
And so should we – section 17 calls for promoting the Gospel, evangelising and praying for them.
Dominus Jesus (CDF, 2000) reiterates the teaching of Vatican II that the Catholic Church is the one and only, sole Church founded by Jesus Christ
Catholics must accept the teaching of Christ’s Church, and learn what it means. Thus the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) # 16, Vatican II, teaches:
“Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since He gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. 19
[19. See Epist. Of the Sacred Cong. Of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston: Denz. 3869-72].
“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel 20 and given by Him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
[20. See Eusebius of Caesarea, *Praeparatio Evangelica, I, 1: PG 21,28].
“Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mk 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions.”
And so should we – section 17 calls for promoting the Gospel, evangelising and praying for them.
Dominus Jesus (CDF, 2000) reiterates the teaching of Vatican II that the Catholic Church is the one and only, sole Church founded by Jesus Christ
P
prettylarge
Guest
, I, 1: PG 21,28].
“Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mk 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions.”
And so should we – section 17 calls for promoting the Gospel, evangelising and praying for them.
Dominus Jesus (CDF, 2000) reiterates the teaching of Vatican II that the Catholic Church is the one and only, sole Church founded by Jesus Christ
Since this was only announced in the 1960’s, does that mean that non Catholics before this would all go to hell?
F
Filioque
Guest
Encyclical Letters of Bl. Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem (1856)
“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”
Encyclical Letters of Bl. Pope Pius IX Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863) “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.”
The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism (1891)
“If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell.”
The Catechism of St. Pope Pius X (1910)
“If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)
“The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven.”
The Spirit of Catholicism (1935)
“Therefore the Church is the true and ordinary institute of the grace and truth of Jesus. But that does not prevent there being, alongside this ordinary institute, extraordinary ways of salvation, or hinder the grace of Christ from visiting particular men without the mediation of the Church. But because and in so far as the Body of Christ comprehends all those who are saved by Christ, those also who are visited by His grace in this immediate way belong to His Church.”
Radio Replies (1938, 1940, 1942)
“Good non-Catholics who, through no fault of their own, have never known the Catholic Church to be the true Church, and who die sincerely repentant of such sins as they have committed, will save their souls.”
Official Letter Authorized by Pope Pius XII
Letter to the Archbishop of Boston
from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics
8 August 1949
from F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani
to Most Reverend Richard James Cushing
“Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit…”
For the entire letter in context, catholicity.elcore.net/SalvationOfNonCatholicsInLetterToBoston.html
“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”
Encyclical Letters of Bl. Pope Pius IX Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863) “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.”
The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism (1891)
“If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell.”
The Catechism of St. Pope Pius X (1910)
“If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)
“The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven.”
The Spirit of Catholicism (1935)
“Therefore the Church is the true and ordinary institute of the grace and truth of Jesus. But that does not prevent there being, alongside this ordinary institute, extraordinary ways of salvation, or hinder the grace of Christ from visiting particular men without the mediation of the Church. But because and in so far as the Body of Christ comprehends all those who are saved by Christ, those also who are visited by His grace in this immediate way belong to His Church.”
Radio Replies (1938, 1940, 1942)
“Good non-Catholics who, through no fault of their own, have never known the Catholic Church to be the true Church, and who die sincerely repentant of such sins as they have committed, will save their souls.”
Official Letter Authorized by Pope Pius XII
Letter to the Archbishop of Boston
from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics
8 August 1949
from F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani
to Most Reverend Richard James Cushing
“Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit…”
For the entire letter in context, catholicity.elcore.net/SalvationOfNonCatholicsInLetterToBoston.html
A
Abu
Guest
See post #10: Pope St Clement I, wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
This teaching was understood from the very beginning, even though there were other speculations.
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NicholasGH
Guest
For what it’s worth, my parish pastor gave a homily about how a morally upright Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, et cetera, could go to Heaven. He mentioned something about the theory of the “Anonymous Christian.”
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Abu
Guest
We know that non-Catholics may be saved, as taught.
“Anonymous Christians” is a speculation of dissenting theologian Karl Rahner. Your priest would do well to learn the actual teaching of Christ’s Church already given.
“Anonymous Christians” is a speculation of dissenting theologian Karl Rahner. Your priest would do well to learn the actual teaching of Christ’s Church already given.
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Tradycja
Guest
One of the objections raised against the dogma is that the phrasing of the dogmatic statements on this matter are not to be taken seriously. For example, the statement from Pope Eugene IV talks about the following categories of men needing to join the Church or be damned: Jews, pagans, heretics and schismatics. Along with Catholics, this
group includes everyone in the world. However, the liberal objects, although the “words” may say this, what was the mind-set of the writers or those who pronounced? Did they know of . . . American Indians?
The response is this:
The general point is this: it is precisely the WORDS which must be accepted as a dogmatic statement. It is, quite literally, impossible for us to know what some one may have “really meant” when writing several centuries ago. The infallibility authority of the Church does NOT include prevention of sin. In other words, any pope may intend to do evil, or pronounce heresy. This involves free will, and God will never violate it because of His Self-imposed restriction.
Thus, even if Pope Eugene meant to declare something else, or even if he did not mean what he declared, it IS the actual wording which binds us.
For a moment examine the alternative.
IF no pronouncement could be accepted unless or until the mind and/or psychology of the pope can be known, THEN nothing can be accepted. For to accept statement X as true, we must first accept explanation Y as true, but this means that we must accept commentary Z which explains Y as true, but this means we must accept analysis A
as true, which explains Z, which explains Y, which explains X. Not only is none of this possible, but also it starts an endless series with the condition that no truth can be accepted and known until the series ends.
Thus, when confronted with two alternatives, one of which must be true, and one of which is shown to be impossible, the first alternative MUST be true.
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AnneElliot
Guest
2 things to remember:
- God is Omnipotent.
- God is Provident.
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Tradycja
Guest
This youtube video will answer your question about those without access to the Church and how that works out: youtube.com/watch?v=o9IdZnjrtFs
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AnneElliot
Guest
You have to read #16 from Lumen Gentium as a whole. Read it again…
“Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also** can** attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a **preparation **for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and **procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”
The Second Vatican Council does NOT teach that persons ignorant of the Gospel can be saved in their ignorance. This paragraph is about fostering the MISSIONS because those open and ready hearts of the ignorant are PREPARED for the Gospel, and God in His Divine Providence will NOT “deny the helps necessary for salvation” for them to arrive at an “explicit knowledge of God”.
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Abu
Guest
The rigorist heresy of Feeneyism met its match when the Holy Office on August 9, 1949, by order of Pope Pius XII, condemned the error of Leonard Feeney who held that those who failed to enter the Church formally, even with no fault of their own, could not reach salvation.
Excerpts:
LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE to Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.
“From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.
Your Excellency:
"This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St. Benedict Center” and “Boston College” in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’
“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: That one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit…. But when a man labours under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God.”
**
“Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. **
Your Excellency’s most devoted,
F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.
A. Ottaviani, Assessor.
(Private); Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.”
[My bold].
The convert Dr Paul Vitz has a good description of those who are obsessed with the only functional ethical principle of reward for self – egoism, self-worship, the individual isolated self – selfism. Psychology As Religion (The Cult of Self-Worship), EErdmans, 1994, p xi].
Selfism is typical of those who feel the need to construct their own beliefs. They do much harm to Christ’s Church and lead many astray.
Excerpts:
LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE to Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.
“From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.
Your Excellency:
"This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St. Benedict Center” and “Boston College” in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’
“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: That one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit…. But when a man labours under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God.”
**
“Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. **
Your Excellency’s most devoted,
F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.
A. Ottaviani, Assessor.
(Private); Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.”
[My bold].
The convert Dr Paul Vitz has a good description of those who are obsessed with the only functional ethical principle of reward for self – egoism, self-worship, the individual isolated self – selfism. Psychology As Religion (The Cult of Self-Worship), EErdmans, 1994, p xi].
Selfism is typical of those who feel the need to construct their own beliefs. They do much harm to Christ’s Church and lead many astray.
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AnneElliot
Guest
That letter was never published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
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Abu
Guest
Unfortunately as readers have seen the selfist approach prevails still, but with the truth known, there is always hope for a return to fidelity, and readers can rest assured that it certainly is possible for non-Catholics to be saved as Christ’s Church teaches.
The official Decree against the heresy needs to be known.
the-pope.com/feeneyite.html:
On February 16, 1953, the Acta Apostolicae Sedis announced the excommunication of Father Leonard Feeney. The following is an official translation of the Decree:
"Since Father Leonard Feeney remained in Boston (St. Benedict Center) and since he has been suspended from performing his priestly duties for a long time because of his grave disobedience to the Authority of the Church, in no way moved by repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, and has still failed to submit, the most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with the responsibility of safeguarding faith and morals, during a plenary session held on February 4, 1953, have declared him excommunicated with all the effects that this has in law.
"On Thursday, February 12, 1953, Our Most Holy Father Pius XII, Pope by Divine Providence, has approved and confirmed the decree of these Most Eminent Fathers, and ordered that this be made a matter of public record.
“Given in Rome in the general quarters of the Holy Office, February 13, 1953. Marius Crovini, notary.”
“Since then, and in spite of the sanction of the Holy See, Father Feeney has made the St. Benedict Center the headquarters of a Society of about one hundred individuals who call themselves the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and who have undertaken to propagate this condemned doctrine about the salvation of non-Catholics, while accusing the Archbishop of Boston and all who agree with his interpretation of being heretics.”
The official Decree against the heresy needs to be known.
the-pope.com/feeneyite.html:
On February 16, 1953, the Acta Apostolicae Sedis announced the excommunication of Father Leonard Feeney. The following is an official translation of the Decree:
"Since Father Leonard Feeney remained in Boston (St. Benedict Center) and since he has been suspended from performing his priestly duties for a long time because of his grave disobedience to the Authority of the Church, in no way moved by repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, and has still failed to submit, the most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with the responsibility of safeguarding faith and morals, during a plenary session held on February 4, 1953, have declared him excommunicated with all the effects that this has in law.
"On Thursday, February 12, 1953, Our Most Holy Father Pius XII, Pope by Divine Providence, has approved and confirmed the decree of these Most Eminent Fathers, and ordered that this be made a matter of public record.
“Given in Rome in the general quarters of the Holy Office, February 13, 1953. Marius Crovini, notary.”
“Since then, and in spite of the sanction of the Holy See, Father Feeney has made the St. Benedict Center the headquarters of a Society of about one hundred individuals who call themselves the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and who have undertaken to propagate this condemned doctrine about the salvation of non-Catholics, while accusing the Archbishop of Boston and all who agree with his interpretation of being heretics.”
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prettylarge
Guest
I heard that only Muslims will go to heaven. So only NON Catholics can be saved. Wouldn’t that annoy you guys…if you got to heaven and God was like “Haven’t you ever heard of the Koran”…“well yes, of course, I just thought that Jesus’ teachings in the Bible were the way to heaven.” “Well, you knew of the Koran and you should have converted to Islam! To hell with you, silly Christian”
I mean, it could happen, right?
I mean, it could happen, right?
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