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redrosetea
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Believe what you will, just don’t expect me to…
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AnneElliot
Guest
I believe all that Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches. I can’t force anyone else to, but truth is truth, no matter who believes it or rejects it.Believe what you will, just don’t expect me to…
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence–Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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redrosetea
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I think that the CC knows what it is talking about and teaches the truth
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AnneElliot
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Good, then we agree. The Catholic Church does know what she is talking about and teaches the truth. The papal and conciliar statements I posted previously are things taught dogmatically by the Catholic Church. Dogma does not change.I think that the CC knows what it is talking about and teaches the truth
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Rogerteder
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No non Catholics cannot go to heaven. They must become Catholic before entering the pearly gates. Only Catholics in heaven.what do you guys believe?
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redrosetea
Guest
No we don’t agree at all…good by find someone else top spar withGood, then we agree. The Catholic Church does know what she is talking about and teaches the truth. The papal and conciliar statements I posted previously are things taught dogmatically by the Catholic Church. Dogma does not change.
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bpbasilphx
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**EENS means that the Church is God’s earthly instrument of salvation and makes it possible. If ANYONE is saved, it’s through the Church. Anything salvific one receives comes through the Church. It’s God’s decision about who benefits from this.I already have the word of the Church on the matter. It’s a dogma of faith that there is no salvation outside the Church.
Original Sin itself is enough to exlude a person from Heaven, but outside of Baptism, the Sacrament of Confession or an act of perfect contrition there is no forgivness of sin. All persons in Heaven are members of the Church, thus all persons in Heaven are not only Christians… they are Catholics. (Even if God had to send an Angel to instruct someone in the Faith, He would do it, rather than let an open and willing heart–that He Himself prepared! perish in ignorance)
Actually, the Church teaches there are THREE ways of receiving Baptism: Water (the ordinary way), and the related ways of blood or desire (extraordinary ways).
As a matter of fact, there are stories about angels appearing to the village leaders and shamans in Alaska instructing them in the rudiments of the faith just before the Orthodox missionaries from Russia would come for the fist time.**
\The papal and conciliar statements I posted previously are things taught dogmatically by the Catholic Church. Dogma does not change.\
**Your interpretation and application of them is NOT the last word in the matter, though. Nor are your quotes ALL the Church has said on the subject.
Obviously, in the Church you get a head start.
Jesus said, “To whom much is given, much is required.” We who know the truth of God and have the Holy Mysteries that give us a head start will be judged much more strictly than those who never knew them.
Therefore, we should look to ourselves and not be concerned with others.**
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TracyJ
Guest
Yes, they can.what do you guys believe?
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TracyJ
Guest
If thats the case Heaven wouldn’t be Heaven, but rather a milder form of Hell.No non Catholics cannot go to heaven. They must become Catholic before entering the pearly gates. Only Catholics in heaven.
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Hesychios
Guest
I agree with you, but the way this argument is approached must be nuanced carefully.I disbelieve non Catholics are denied heaven…I have never heard anything so filled with the lack of mercy as this
I think we all agree the Jesus Christ came to save us, that was God’s intention … a manifestation of His perfect love for humankind. We also agree that the church is God’s chosen instrument for that purpose. (Now some people might disagree about what constitutes church, but that is a different subject from this, I think.)
The point I would make is that we cannot tell God whom He can save, or why. This is completely out of place for us, He is perfect, and we are not. Thus, we can see that with God, anything is possible, and we do not need to know or understand His reasons.
I don’t think we can speak in absolutes, such as: something cannot be so. We have to accept that we may never understand His (Our Lord’s) decisions, yet must always accept them as best.
So I would say in answer to a question like “can non-christians go to heaven?” we can have the opinion either …
- perhaps
- perhaps not
- I hope so
- I hope not
WE follow that path (the Didache calls it “the Way of Life”) as best we can, and hope in the Lord. For those who do not know this Way we can only hope for them and pray. First, we pray that they also find the Way of Life, and failing this, that God’s perfect love saves them.
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AnneElliot
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I’m not interpreting them. I am taking the statements at face value. Dogma needs no interpretation. By nature, dogmas are truths fallen from Heaven, as it were. They explain and define Church teaching in themselves.Your interpretation and application of them is NOT the last word in the matter, though. Nor are your quotes ALL the Church has said on the subject.
I’ve been involved in several various threads throughout my time on these forums regarding the subject of EENS and no one has ever brought up a papal or conciliar statement that claims we must “interpret” dogma that has already been clearly defined to mean something other than what it once meant. The current Pope and his predecessors, and the Second Vatican Council, changed nothing of the Church’s understanding of the dogma EENS. The Church now understands EENS as she has always understood it. It means the same thing today, as it meant 500 years ago, etc.
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Tradycja
Guest
Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:
“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned (Denzinger 2022)
“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned (Denzinger 2022)
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Shin
Guest
Everyone in Heaven is a Catholic.
Every who is baptized is a Catholic by this baptism. After the age of reason, this changes if a person starts learning wrong doctrine culpably, and holds firmly to it culpably or not.
No one in original sin can enter Heaven. No one who is not baptized can enter Heaven.
The debate about who can die and go to Heaven centers upon what it takes to be baptized before you die – not after.
After you are dead, you cannot be baptized, it is over.
When the debate is about someone who has lived his entire life not as a Christian:
It basically revolves around what God may or may not do for someone in the minutes before death by a miracle or revelation of some kind.
But that person -will- be a Catholic before he dies if he is going to Heaven. He will, in some fashion, know the basic minimums of the Faith, of God.
What are the basic minimums of the Faith necessary for God to properly baptize someone before death via some miracle?
. . .
Every who is baptized is a Catholic by this baptism. After the age of reason, this changes if a person starts learning wrong doctrine culpably, and holds firmly to it culpably or not.
No one in original sin can enter Heaven. No one who is not baptized can enter Heaven.
The debate about who can die and go to Heaven centers upon what it takes to be baptized before you die – not after.
After you are dead, you cannot be baptized, it is over.
When the debate is about someone who has lived his entire life not as a Christian:
It basically revolves around what God may or may not do for someone in the minutes before death by a miracle or revelation of some kind.
But that person -will- be a Catholic before he dies if he is going to Heaven. He will, in some fashion, know the basic minimums of the Faith, of God.
What are the basic minimums of the Faith necessary for God to properly baptize someone before death via some miracle?
. . .
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Robert_Michael
Guest
Read after that part in the Catechism that says “Outside the church there is no salvation” and it teaches Invisible Ignorance as dogma…I have a book with a nihil obstat and imprimatur called “Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine” that says as much.
Which part do you disagree with? Ignorance is not salvific, Jesus Christ is through His Holy Church.
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Shin
Guest
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless
a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of
God.”
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of
Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least
implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless
a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of
God.”
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of
Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least
implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
- The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\I’m not interpreting them. I am taking the statements at face value. Dogma needs no interpretation. \
**As a matter of fact, dogmas do. And yes, you are interpreting them according to your OWN understanding, not the Church’s.
In the case of EENS, Fr. Feeny took it way too far.
A letter from the Holy See about the matter says that in particular it means that those who believe the Catholic faith to be true, yet REFUSE to embrace it, jeapordize their souls.
Not everything in the teaching of the church is from councils or infallible statements.
Let me warn you: You are using a dangerously fundamentalist approach that is nothing more than the other end of Protestant fundamentalism. They, too say, “I’m not interpreting the Bible. I’m just taking it at face value. The Bible needs no interpretation.”
Neither Catholics nor Orthodox have ever been fundamentalists.**
**As a matter of fact, dogmas do. And yes, you are interpreting them according to your OWN understanding, not the Church’s.
In the case of EENS, Fr. Feeny took it way too far.
A letter from the Holy See about the matter says that in particular it means that those who believe the Catholic faith to be true, yet REFUSE to embrace it, jeapordize their souls.
Not everything in the teaching of the church is from councils or infallible statements.
Let me warn you: You are using a dangerously fundamentalist approach that is nothing more than the other end of Protestant fundamentalism. They, too say, “I’m not interpreting the Bible. I’m just taking it at face value. The Bible needs no interpretation.”
Neither Catholics nor Orthodox have ever been fundamentalists.**
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