Can one be a "Catholic At Large?"

[FrDavid96]

I assume this is if permission is not granted by the actual parish priest for a marriage to occur? When in comes to weddings, should the marriage take place in bride’s territorial parish, grooms, or can it be in one the parents’ territorial parishes? Sometimes, with young people you are moving around a lot with college and career choices and the parents’ parish would actually feel like the one you would approach for a marriage (especially if that location is also a better site for the majority of the family travel-wise).

I truly fear that you’re missing the whole point.

Canon law does not operate on the basis of “where do you feel like being a member?” or “what do you feel to be your parish?” It simply does not work that way.

There are laws (not just practices or policies, but actual laws that determine a valid marriage) in the Code of Canon Law that deal with this very topic.

I cannot sit here and go through every possibility, but suffice to say that if a couple wants to be married in a parish-church, or by a priest other than the canonical parish or pastor, the Church allows for this possibility, but with within certain limits, and only if certain procedures are followed. Here again, there are no guarantees if parish territory is not followed.

Again, if you have a specific question, I can try to answer it.

Please understand that all I can do is type words. I don’t want my posts to appear unemotional or uncaring. I can explain the law (as best I’m able), but in the context of an internet forum, that’s all I can do (without resorting to smilees which would only trivialize the content).

 

[FrDavid96]

Now I’m curious about what I mentioned earlier - what is the provision for an individual who lacks a fixed residence?

&

Would this similarly apply to children, or would other arrangements be made? I was thinking for example of various traditional traveller communities (romani and the like) where they might not have fixed housing.

I’m concerned that we’ve wandered a bit away from the original topic.

Have your questions been answered?

 

[z_0101]

Again, if you have a specific question, I can try to answer it.
Please understand that all I can do is type words. I don’t want my posts to appear unemotional or uncaring. I can explain the law (as best I’m able), but in the context of an internet forum, that’s all I can do (without resorting to smilees which would only trivialize the content).

Looks like we cross posted… sorry.
Never fear with me on this FrDavid96 as you answer my posts/questions… I understand from where you are attempting to answer.
Just be patient with me as I ask and probe… it’s the chemist in me to take things apart and until I can do that, I’m not often satisfied with the answer and I certainly do not mean any disrespect. My profs at university seem to have been few that understood my need to master the topic and never took offense at my questions (although, occasionally, one would look at me, smile, and say, “are we there yet?” I’d say no, and he say “it’s still a ways off to grandma’s house… be patient”).

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Please understand that all I can do is type words. I don’t want my posts to appear unemotional or uncaring. I can explain the law (as best I’m able), but in the context of an internet forum, that’s all I can do (without resorting to smilees which would only trivialize the content).

I’m not upset, only curious because of the current situation of intentionally not attending my territorial parish. I really did attempt that first for a good year, but I also felt pretty dead spiritually after coming from a college campus with a Newman Club. The added issues with personality made me really need a switch. It is the nearest parish with any classes for adults (besides RCIA) as it can offer more being bigger. I guess what I’ve taken away is just be prepared should I need a wedding/baptism that I’m not guaranteed the sacrament in the church I’m attending Mass.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you FrDavid96 for the copy work. I had already read the canon as you listed. Also, thank you SusipeMeDomine for the link to one annotation of the canon. Not being a canon law expert, such information is valuable for proper understanding of canon law.

Unfortunately, both of these only refer to the establishment of the parish, a person’s residency within a parish, and the Pastor’s responsibility within that parish to the members therein.
What I don’t see is the explicit statement to support Discerning13’s comment that
“a **priest is not allowed accept **them into the RCIA/First Communion/Confirmation classes if you are not living within the boundaries of his parish”

Please, do not take offense here, I’m only trying to understand how one is supporting the above statement when there has been no such language presented.

Take the situation within our three local parishes…
Parish A = Preschool thru 6th grade, High School
Parish B = Preschool thru 6th grade
Parish C = Preschool thru 6th grade

From the arguments that have been made, No students from Parish B nor C can be allowed into the High School in A because it has the faith formation classes for confirmation. The Chaplin assigned to the High School reports directly to the Pastor in A.
Parents in A, B, or C are not allowed to send their children to the other parish preschools or elementary schools (a to b or c; b to a or c; c to a or b) because each school has the first communion formation? And the same being true of those parents that send their children to public schools, they are required to send their children to the parish program of the area where they live?

If you can support the statement then is my Pastor going to have a coronary event when I tell him this and 2/3 of the high school students will have to be expelled along with a large number of the elementary school. As for our RCIA program… the three parishes will have to shut down the joint program and start three separate programs. If they refuse, I guess my only recourse will be to the Archbishop - good thing I know him thru the DRE program.
I guess I’ll have to resign from the Parish council as will half the members of the board, all of the members of the finance committee, and I have no idea what we’re going to do with the Hispanic ministry… and of course we will have to have the Archbishop immediately set up an investigation into the whole matter to see what other violations have occurred.

(oh, btw, in some states the public school districts are not “set-in-stone.” For example in NE, one can opt out of the local public school district and apply for admission to another district. This isn’t an automatic enrollment for the selected district (unlike if you attend your district), and many districts have waiting lists. I have a friend that has placed their 3 year old on the waiting list for the district he wants the child to attend (and good district too) with the hope that by the time his little one reaches the age to attend kindergarten a slot will be available.)

If you have a serious question, I’ll try to answer it.

I know it’s late (at least in my time zone). I’m calling it a night. If you want a serious conversation tomorrow, I’ll be logging on in the evening (at least that’s what I expect).

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m not upset, only curious because of the current situation of intentionally not attending my territorial parish. I really did attempt that first for a good year, but I also felt pretty dead spiritually after coming from a college campus with a Newman Club. The added issues with personality made me really need a switch. It is the nearest parish with any classes for adults (besides RCIA) as it can offer more being bigger. I guess what I’ve taken away is just be prepared should I need a wedding/baptism that I’m not guaranteed the sacrament in the church I’m attending Mass.

Yes. You have a right to the sacraments from your own proper pastor. Whether or not accommodations can be made for a parish/pastor other than your own, there are no guarantees.

I’ll be away from the desk until tomorrow evening or night.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Yes. You have a right to the sacraments from your own proper pastor. Whether or not accommodations can be made for a parish/pastor other than your own, there are no guarantees.

I’ll be away from the desk until tomorrow evening or night.

Thank you, Father. Sorry to keep you up.

 

[adrift]

Part of me wonders: why is it so difficult for Catholics to understand that parishes are territories? I think that part of the answer is that in our contemporary society, many of us are members of all kinds of groups. If I “register” as a member of the auto club, I get a card, and I am a member. If I register with the Raccoon Lodge, I become a member. If I register with the scout group, I become a member. It’s difficult for people to understand that in Catholic law, being “registered” with a parish means nothing—yes, literally nothing.

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Father I believe you have misunderstood. I am fully aware of what you mean by territories. Let me try again
This statement was made which you seem to agree with

Another problem would be, if you have children, a priest is not allowed accept them into the RCIA/First Communion/Confirmation classes if you are not living within the boundaries of his parish.

You stated that they could be in the class but the priest could/should not confer the sacrament. You said also it could invalidate a marriage.
I understand what you say should be but it isn’t the way it is. I have not received one sacrament from my parish priest. My daughter didn’t either evidently because she did it through the parish that we go to which I said is outside our diocese. Now you have me worried that my marriage and my daughter’s is invalid. How about our confirmations? It is also true that many of my relatives are in the same boat. I know of no priest who had ever brought up that we needed to receive sacraments from our own parish.
I did know when I got married I needed to ask my parish priest to be married at another parish. I rarely went to church at that parish but went one Sunday and after mass asked the priest. He didn’t know who I was and I thought he would tell me to make an appointment and that I would fill out papers but he just waved his hand me and said fine.
So when it is said that a priest is not “allowed” what does that mean “not allowed”

 

[808Catholic]

There has to be some procedure at least for those who do not possess a fixed residence. How does the church handle, say, Catholic Romani who may still practice a traveler lifestyle?

I attend Mass in 4 different parishes (within the same Diocese) but the records of my Sacraments are physically located in one parish (where I still attend Mass.) While on travel, I attend Mass at any parish that I find and I usually research the area I’m staying at to see where the nearest parishes are located and what time they hold Mass/Confession. The internet can be a wonderful tool!

 

[FrDavid96]

Father I believe you have misunderstood. I am fully aware of what you mean by territories. Let me try again
This statement was made which you seem to agree with

You stated that they could be in the class but the priest could/should not confer the sacrament. You said also it could invalidate a marriage.
I understand what you say should be but it isn’t the way it is. I have not received one sacrament from my parish priest. My daughter didn’t either evidently because she did it through the parish that we go to which I said is outside our diocese. Now you have me worried that my marriage and my daughter’s is invalid. How about our confirmations? It is also true that many of my relatives are in the same boat. I know of no priest who had ever brought up that we needed to receive sacraments from our own parish.
I did know when I got married I needed to ask my parish priest to be married at another parish. I rarely went to church at that parish but went one Sunday and after mass asked the priest. He didn’t know who I was and I thought he would tell me to make an appointment and that I would fill out papers but he just waved his hand me and said fine.
So when it is said that a priest is not “allowed” what does that mean “not allowed”

I agreed with an earlier post that spoke about sacraments of Initiation (the one you just quoted). That was a very broad statement that could include dozens of different scenarios. In some scenarios, a priest cannot do the sacrament (if he does not have jurisdiction), in some he may. It was a broad statement. The point is that even if jurisdiction does not apply to every possible scenario, it’s still very relevant.

I did not say that it would “invalidate a marriage.” I cannot imagine myself using such words. If ever I did, I must have had a fever at the moment. What I said is that jurisdiction makes the difference between a valid marriage and and invalid attempt at marriage—that’s a world of difference from saying “invalidate a marriage.”

You’ve described a few anecdotes from your personal experience. All I can say is that from where I sit at my desk, my computer, in my own parish territory: I presume that whatever priest officiated at those ceremonies had faculties either by virtue of office, or by delegation. What you don’t see is that anecdotal stories do not define what’s in canon law. The canons do that. Something might have happened, but you’re unaware. Maybe the priest who did (officially witness) the marriage had jurisdiction over one person—that would suffice. Still, anecdotes don’t change the law.

The OP is asking about what parish/pastor applies to a person without a permanent home in the usual sense. To understand the topic, we must first understand that parishes are territories, not buildings, and then understand that parish jurisdiction is indeed an important element of the law.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you, Father. Sorry to keep you up.

You didn’t keep me up. I did that. I can walk away from the computer anytime I like. It’s the non-emergency phone calls that keep me awake.

 

[adrift]

I did not say that it would “invalidate a marriage.” I cannot imagine myself using such words. If ever I did, I must have had a fever at the moment. What I said is that jurisdiction makes the difference between a valid marriage and and invalid attempt at marriage—that’s a world of difference from saying “invalidate a marriage.”

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O.K. Father that is what you did say but it doesn’t clear anything up. My marriage and the marriage of my daughter might be according to canon law invalid which was the point of my worry.
I am contacting the Diocese today to find out.

 

[adrift]

If you have a serious question, I’ll try to answer it.

I know it’s late (at least in my time zone). I’m calling it a night. If you want a serious conversation tomorrow, I’ll be logging on in the evening (at least that’s what I expect).

I think you should reread his post.