Can one be a universalist and a Catholic in good standing?

[truthseeker32]

Universalism is my last stumbling block to conversion to the faith. I can’t let it go, and it is not out of fear that I cannot let go. I legitimately believe that the strict non-universalist position is nonsensical.

The common defense of Hell is that it exists as a result of free will. I have no problem with the idea that there is a state of suffering that occurs when one rejects God, I am even open to the extreme possibility that this rejection could last forever, but it doesn’t make sense to me that this state of hell should in all cases be permanent. Why must a soul be eternally trapped in a state in which they no longer have the freedom to come unto Christ? Would it not be better for God to always leave the door to salvation open?

Can one be an orthodox Catholic and believe that Hell may be empty or temporary?

 

[reagent6]

Dear Truthseeker

The Church has never taught that anyone is actually in hell. Not even the most obvious candidates. Hell does exist, and must for the sake of justice. But my understanding is that you are free to believe it is empty.

The soul is eternal, and the state of the soul at the time of death determines its fate- heaven or hell. Those in pugatory are already saved and destined for heaven after a time of purification.

I hope that this helps. Prayers for your journey.

 

[truthseeker32]

Thank you for your kind reply, Reagent6.

…
The soul is eternal, and the state of the soul at the time of death determines its fate- heaven or hell. Those in pugatory are already saved and destined for heaven after a time of purification.

This is one of the Catholic claims I do not understand. Why is it that our fate must be sealed upon death? Why is there no opportunity for reconciliation in the world to come? This does not seem to me like the best possible option. Isn’t always allowing a soul to repent a better plan than making one’s fate final based on a very short mortal life? What is good about making one’s eternal fate sealed upon their state at death?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you for your kind reply, Reagent6.

This is one of the Catholic claims I do not understand. Why is it that our fate must be sealed upon death? Why is there no opportunity for reconciliation in the world to come? This does not seem to me like the best possible option. Isn’t always allowing a soul to repent a better plan than making one’s fate final based on a very short mortal life? What is good about making one’s eternal fate sealed upon their state at death?

Those are questions you will have to ask Jesus when/if you meet Him!



Seriously, God gives us free will, and that includes the free will to reject His salvation.

 

[Theophorus]

Thank you for your kind reply, Reagent6.

This is one of the Catholic claims I do not understand. Why is it that our fate must be sealed upon death? Why is there no opportunity for reconciliation in the world to come? This does not seem to me like the best possible option. Isn’t always allowing a soul to repent a better plan than making one’s fate final based on a very short mortal life? What is good about making one’s eternal fate sealed upon their state at death?

Time only exists as a by-product of material reality, that is only in the created universe. It doesn’t make sense to speak of an ability to change ones mind after death as we enter into eternity with our habits and dispositions formed by this life in such a way that changing our mind and repenting are no longer technically possible as we don’t have the conditions to do so(to change) anymore.

 

[truthseeker32]

Time only exists as a by-product of material reality, that is only in the created universe. It doesn’t make sense to speak of an ability to change ones mind after death as we enter into eternity with our habits and dispositions formed by this life in such a way that changing our mind and repenting are no longer technically possible as we don’t have the conditions to do so(to change) anymore.

Human beings will still exist in time and space, otherwise how are we to interpret the resurrection? Bodies need time and space in which to operate.

 

[truthseeker32]

Those are questions you will have to ask Jesus when/if you meet Him!



Seriously, God gives us free will, and that includes the free will to reject His salvation.

Yes, we are free to reject Christ, but why then are we not also free to change our ways and repent?

 

[Ad_Orientem]

The damned would not be happy in Heaven.

“The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would indeed have wished to live for ever, that they might continue in sin for ever for they desire rather to sin than to live.” --St. Gregory the Great
(Moral. xxxiv, on Job 41:23; qtd. in St. Thomas, ST S, Q99, a1)

 

[Goya]

Universalism is my last stumbling block to conversion to the faith. I can’t let it go, and it is not out of fear that I cannot let go. I legitimately believe that the strict non-universalist position is nonsensical.

The common defense of Hell is that it exists as a result of free will. I have no problem with the idea that there is a state of suffering that occurs when one rejects God, I am even open to the extreme possibility that this rejection could last forever, but it doesn’t make sense to me that this state of hell should in all cases be permanent. Why must a soul be eternally trapped in a state in which they no longer have the freedom to come unto Christ? Would it not be better for God to always leave the door to salvation open?

Can one be an orthodox Catholic and believe that Hell may be empty or temporary?

No one really likes to talk about hell. It’s uncomfortable. Get’s a little itchy…makes us sound judgmental. But it is a cornerstone of Christianity–even our seperated brethren–perhaps even more so than Catholics–own that Hell simply is.

It is disingenuous to pretend it does not exist, or to downplay it’s permanancy, severity, etc. Or hypocritical–at least inconsistent–for any Christian to pretnd to be Christian, while denying Hell. Chirst spoke an awful lot about it, for something that you don’t want to believe exists. I imagine you’ve heard it said before, that Chirst mentions hell many more times than heaven, in the Gospels.

Perhaps a little perspective will help–we were all hellbound…until Christ came along.

Hence Christianity teaches that everyone is still hellbound–except for those who avail themselves of the unique path to salvation that is Chirst (and those whom the Lord, in His omnipotence, and for reasons beyond our comprehension, and not revealed to us…chooses to save). Christ gave humanity a way–really, THE Way–(“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”)–to salvation. He didn’t nullify free will, and automatically save everyone–however warm and fuzzy and nice that might sound or feel.

And again, for perspective–life is a gift; we didn’t do anything to deserve it–and when our time is up, our time is up. Hence what we are talking about, is the exception to the rule. Period. We should be grateful for the opportunity for eternity–and pray intensely, that we may be led to heaven, and spared Hell.

But I totally get where you’re coming from. It’s a hard pill to swallow; it seems to fly in the face of ‘God of mercy’, and ‘God of Love’–but our Faith is based on what has been Revealed to us–not on what we wish had been revealed.

…and Hell is an awful significant part of that equation. It has undeniably been devinely revealed to us, in pretty clear, if unpleasant, terms.

 

[MattofTexas]

I think a little clarification is necessary. Are you talking about universalism in that all religions are equally valid paths to God? Or universal salvation, meaning in the end everyone will be saved? If the former, it must be understood from a Catholic prospective that the Catholic Church has the fullness of God’s Truth revealed to human beings and other faiths do not. No other religion truly leads to God because this is the only Church that God Himself founded. This is not to say people outside the Church through no direct fault of their own cannot in the end be saved, but just as Christ said salvation is of the Jews because the Savior is a Jew, so we say salvation is of the Church because it is the Church which passes on the deposit of Christ’s teachings, offers the Eucharist (which is Christ Himself), and administers the other sacraments.

However given that your religion says “lapsed Mormon in RCIA” I assume you mean something more along the lines of universal salvation, which is from what I understand the teaching of the LDS Church…or at least it’s similar. There were some Church Fathers and saints who have held a view of apocatastasis (“the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.” NewAdvent.org). The doctrine can be traced back to the Platonist influence on the Church Father Origen (notice how he’s not called St. Origen? It’s because he was post-humorously anathematized along with a form of apocatastasis which the Church determined to be in error), and the various forms of the doctrine have shown up in the theology of a variety of other saints and theologians. I think it’s fine to hope that Hell will be empty, but you cannot count on it.

Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia entry about it and this video from Fr. Robert Barron

 

[floresco]

This is one of the Catholic claims I do not understand. Why is it that our fate must be sealed upon death? Why is there no opportunity for reconciliation in the world to come? This does not seem to me like the best possible option. Isn’t always allowing a soul to repent a better plan than making one’s fate final based on a very short mortal life? What is good about making one’s eternal fate sealed upon their state at death?

How much do you know about the Catholic teaching on Purgatory? Souls do go from Purgatory to Heaven.

 

[steve_b]

Universalism is my last stumbling block to conversion to the faith. I can’t let it go, and it is not out of fear that I cannot let go. I legitimately believe that the strict non-universalist position is nonsensical.

The common defense of Hell is that it exists as a result of free will. I have no problem with the idea that there is a state of suffering that occurs when one rejects God,

It’s not only when one rejects God. There’s also mortal sin that if one dies in a mortal sin they go to hell

for a few examples

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης *arsenokoitēs] *10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

One therefore doesn’t want to die with any of these sins on their soul. That’s why Jesus gave us the sacrament of confession / penance.
There’s that door He leaves open.
t:

I am even open to the extreme possibility that this rejection could last forever, but it doesn’t make sense to me that this state of hell should in all cases be permanent. Why must a soul be eternally trapped in a state in which they no longer have the freedom to come unto Christ? Would it not be better for God to always leave the door to salvation open?

Angels are creatires. They are made immortal just like us. Immortal means there is a beginning, but no end. The angels had their probationary period and apparantly 1/3 of them failed their test, Lucifer and the others, got wiped out of the ranks. When the trial period ended, the angelic ranks advanced to the beatific vision, and no more tests. The fallen angels we call demons, have for all eternity, seperation from God in hell.

Humans have an immortal soul, and we have a probationary period. It’s this life. Each person has their own specific life. While we’re being tested, God always leaves the door of salvation open. But when our time here is up, and the test is over, there is heaven and the beatific vision, or it’s hell, Just like the angels.
t:

Can one be an orthodox Catholic and believe that Hell may be empty or temporary?

God doesn’t scare people for no reason. He’s not like that. Turn it around. Is heaven empty? or mererly temporary?

What good is a test if there is no right and wrong answers? If everybody that ever lived gets transported to heaven when they die, that in my view wouldn’t be heaven. We believe what we believe because of Divine Revelation. There is no use believing in things that aren’t true. Don’t give parking space in your head for things that aren’t true. OTOH, one wants to believe everything that is true. Hell exists, do everything in your power to avoid it.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Yes, we are free to reject Christ, but why then are we not also free to change our ways and repent?

We are not free to reject Christ. We have the ability to do so, but not without consequence.

It’s funny because people don’t think they should go to hell for a mortal sin which is done and over with in a minute, but they do believe they should be rewarded with heaven for eternity for a good deed which is done and over with in a minute.

 

[St_Francis]

Remember that God is perfectly just. He would not have made Hell eternal if those who ended up there did not deserve it.

 

[TomD123]

Human beings will still exist in time and space, otherwise how are we to interpret the resurrection? Bodies need time and space in which to operate.

We will still have a material component because of the ressurection but its not entirely correct to say we will still exist in time and space. Entering into the inner life of God moves us beyond time and space in so many ways I would imagine. I think thats really the issue after death that time as we know it either ceases or drastically changes.

 

[stephe1987]

Your will is set at the time of death. People who go to hell choose to go there because they would be happier there than with God. They don’t want to obey and would rather spend eternity away from God doing as they please than spending eternity with God and no longer being able to sin.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

For your original question, it depends on what exactly you mean by universalist. We cannot deny the reality of Hell and the possibility of Hell, but while not denying its possibility, it is possible to be of the opinion that it is not likely that there is anyone (or at least there there are not many) there. It’s not an opinion I hold, or think has much going for it, but it is within the limits of what a Catholic can believe so far as I understand.

Fr. Barron, a priest I admire greatly, especially for his video evangelization on youtube (though I am not sure I agree with him on this issue) says that we can reasonably hope that all can be saved. I suggest reading this article: wordonfire.org/Written-Word/articles-commentaries/March-2011/Is-Hell-Crowded-or-Empty-A-Catholic-Perspective.aspx

This is one of the Catholic claims I do not understand. Why is it that our fate must be sealed upon death? Why is there no opportunity for reconciliation in the world to come? This does not seem to me like the best possible option. Isn’t always allowing a soul to repent a better plan than making one’s fate final based on a very short mortal life? What is good about making one’s eternal fate sealed upon their state at death?

My understanding (which is open to correction) is that it takes an act of God to bring one to repentance. While alive, our experience of God is… clouded somewhat. We don’t actually see Him as He is. But at death, we see ourselves and Him clearly, and then reject Him entirely or accept Him entirely, depending on if we’re in a state of grace at death.

The aspect that matters for this question is clarity. On earth while in a state of mortal sin, we may accept God’s offer to restore ourselves to a state of grace, but at death we see ourselves and God clearly, choose to reject God and - even if such an opportunity to restore ourselves to a state of grace were offered - would see it for what it is, a gift from God, and reject it out of hand because we reject God entirely.

Or to put it another way: we are in a state of self imposed separation from God, and so have willfully shut ourselves off from the offer of reconciliation.

Or yet another way: the Eastern concept of Hell is that all still experience God, but that the damned experience His presence as pain because of their rejection of Him. Anything of God would be painful and rejected - including the offer of reconciliation. Even the hand of friendship, extended in love, would be felt by such a poor soul, already curled up in pain, as yet another poke by a sharp stick. And all by his own choice.

You may also be interested in catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is.

 

[Philthy]

I legitimately believe that the strict non-universalist position is nonsensical.

Nonsensical from what perspective - Scriptural or logical?

The common defense of Hell is that it exists as a result of free will. I have no problem with the idea that there is a state of suffering that occurs when one rejects God, I am even open to the extreme possibility that this rejection could last forever, but it doesn’t make sense to me that this state of hell should in all cases be permanent. Why must a soul be eternally trapped in a state in which they no longer have the freedom to come unto Christ? Would it not be better for God to always leave the door to salvation open?

It is mostly a mystery - why a soul is fixed either “for” or “against” God at the time of death, but all things in eternity are quite mysterious. Perhaps it scares you to think just how important our time on earth is, but it is important. Our choices here and now have eternal consequences - do you doubt that as well?

Can one be an orthodox Catholic and believe that Hell may be empty or temporary?

An orthodox Catholic cannot believe in a temporary Hell. I’m not sure about an empty Hell, but I’d say - on the face of it - that it’s far more illogical than anything I’ve ever heard regarding Hell.

 

[Philthy]

Your will is set at the time of death. People who go to hell choose to go there because they would be happier there than with God. They don’t want to obey and would rather spend eternity away from God doing as they please than spending eternity with God and no longer being able to sin.

I agree, and this helps explain why even sending someone to Hell is a loving act by God:
a person who is permanently disposed to reject God would be in eternal, dreadful fear if they were in his unveiled presence for all eternity. It is better for them to be shielded from his infinite glory and therefore more loving for God to provide a means for them to not be with Him.

 

[truthseeker32]

It is disingenuous to pretend it does not exist, or to downplay it’s permanancy, severity, etc. Or hypocritical–at least inconsistent–for any Christian to pretnd to be Christian, while denying Hell. Chirst spoke an awful lot about it, for something that you don’t want to believe exists. I imagine you’ve heard it said before, that Chirst mentions hell many more times than heaven, in the Gospels.

I don’t have difficulty with Hel, per se. I have difficulty with the way Hell is defined by Catholic doctrine.

And again, for perspective–life is a gift; we didn’t do anything to deserve it–and when our time is up, our time is up. Hence what we are talking about, is the exception to the rule. Period. We should be grateful for the opportunity for eternity–and pray intensely, that we may be led to heaven, and spared Hell.

Right… life is a gift… that may end in eternal suffering for individuals who didn’t even get to decide whether they wanted the gift in the first place.

But I totally get where you’re coming from. It’s a hard pill to swallow; it seems to fly in the face of ‘God of mercy’, and ‘God of Love’–but our Faith is based on what has been Revealed to us–not on what we wish had been revealed.

It’s funny because people don’t think they should go to hell for a mortal sin which is done and over with in a minute, but they do believe they should be rewarded with heaven for eternity for a good deed which is done and over with in a minute.

It is not funny at all. Eternal rest is a good thing whereas eternal suffering is a bad thing. Why is it funny for people to think that God would always leave the door open for a person to come into eternal rest? Further, who said it would be over and done with in a minute? It may take thousands of years of purgation for the soul to finally be ready for God’s kingdom.

Your will is set at the time of death. People who go to hell choose to go there because they would be happier there than with God. They don’t want to obey and would rather spend eternity away from God doing as they please than spending eternity with God and no longer being able to sin.

Are you saying there will be happiness in hell?

Nonsensical from what perspective - Scriptural or logical?

Logical. God is all good and desires that all men come unto him, so why would he make it so at death there is no longer the opportunity? Why is the way shut? I have no problem believing that there are some souls who will potentially and eternally reject God, but why is it that there should never be an opportunity for souls to have a change of heart?

Further, I have a hard time understanding why free will is so good that it trumps eternal peace. I wonder if it wouldn’t be better for God to compel those who resist him to accept his love. Ultimately it would be the best thing for the soul of any individual.