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Tom_Baum
Guest
Question asked: Can one be saved outside the CC?
Question to ponder: Is anyone outside the CC?
Question to ponder: Is anyone outside the CC?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Why bring them into the fold if it doesn’t matter?
Why evangelize if all we do is do away with their invincible ignorance.
Perhaps they are better off without being evangelized.
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Sirach2
Guest
Are you serious, Jon?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I am serious.
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Gorgias
Guest
Robert,
Hmm… the translation “whoever…” only shows up in the NAB; in other English translations, it’s “he” (RSV-CE, Douay Rheims) or “the man” (Knox). In the Greek, it’s a third-person singular construct: “ὁ ἔχων τὰς ἐντολάς μου” (the [one] having my commandments)… “ἐκεῖνός ἐστιν ὁ ἀγαπῶν με” (this one is the [one] loving me).
So, from the perspective of a spiritual interpretation, the ‘whoever’ works well, at least in terms of a stylistic approach; from the perspective of Scriptural exegesis, though, it’s a simple third-person singular reference. Given the content of v.15 (“if you love me, you will keep my commandments”), it seems plain that Jesus is talking about people who already know Him and are attempting to live by His commands. Might we claim that it applies to non-Catholic Christians? Perhaps. Would it be reasonable to apply it to those who, not knowing Christ, lead virtuous lives? That’s a bit of a stretch…
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Robert_Sock
Guest
What you say makes sense, but I like Mother Angelica’s interpretation and believe that it is somehow true!
LOVE!
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
I wrote this up in response to a friend with the same question. People, feel free to correct anything that is wrong. Here we go:
What is the point of evangelizing if there is possible salvation for the souls anyway?
I say to you, Jesus went to the abode of the dead to evangelize to the already dead. Whosoever chose to follow Him, got to go to Heaven. And whosoever decided to reject Him, was sent to Hell. I propose that the same mechanism is at work in the modern day. There was one general judgment for the dead between the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. There will be another at the end of Time.
Secondly, I answer your question with the following: what is the point of evangelizing in the first place? Surely it is to spread the Joy of the Gospel and to help others live the hope, faith, and love that come from the Good News. Surely it is to guide others to become holy through almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. And in being holy, those guide the rest of the world to become better humans as per morally and ethically through the Good News.
While I agree that the humans have possible salvation after death in special cases, that salvation doesn’t make the world a better place after they are dead. The good fruits that faith and love give will not be shared with others and will not excel the world in a loving way.
Richard Feynman
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Gorgias
Guest
From a spiritual perspective, I’m with you. Likewise, she correctly articulates the Church’s position on the universality of Christ’s sacrifice. On the other hand, I’m not certain that the Scripture says quite what she says it does.
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rightofcenter77
Guest
I often point this fact out. Many in these forums love the idea that Protestants are saved because “they don’t know better” and aren’t the ones that caused the split. I see CCC 818 quoted and CCC 846-848. None of these say that Protestants WILL be saved. Only that they can be.
The amount of evangelization that modern Catholics do is pathetically small. I honestly believe the reason for this is that many rest on this idea that since people don’t know better, that they are just automatically saved. THAT IS NOT CHURCH TEACHING!
I always point out that those who truly follow the Holy Spirit will come to the Truth. We as Catholics point out constantly that we can only plant seeds but we can’t actually make anyone convert - that’s up to the Holy Spirit. And that’s true! By the same reasoning, those who truly discern the spirit MUST find the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If they don’t, they didn’t really discern. We must evangelize and help people find the Truth and listen to the Holy Spirit.
Peace,
Sean
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rightofcenter77
Guest
Exactly. Jesus made it very clear that we must spread the Gospel. He wouldn’t have told us to if it weren’t necessary.
Peace,
Sean
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OraLabora
Guest
Nothing in the CCC says that Catholics WILL be saved. Only that they CAN be saved. There are many obstacles on the road to salvation, even for Catholics. Mostly, the hardness of our hearts.
Spreading the Gospel doesn’t mean arguing with Protestants.
It means actually living the Gospel according to the gifts that God gave us.
When Jesus said what He said, there were no Protestants. The Protestants have, in fact, actually heard the Gospel call. Even if there are some doctrinal problems, they have heard the call, and responded to it. They have been placed on the road to salvation by their response, and specifically, their baptism. Is their salvation guaranteed? No, but no less than our salvation as Catholics is guaranteed, because not a single one of us is 100% faithful to the gospel. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Is a truly humble and practicing Catholic on the road to salvation? Absolutely, and possibly farther down the road than a Protestant, but possibly not.
It is not up to us to say who is saved and who isn’t, but only to suggest, preferably through our own acts, the Catholic path forward. God is the ultimate arbiter of salvation, and salvation can only come through a life-long process of inner conversion.
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rightofcenter77
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Agreed. Also with Protestants, the hardness of their hearts prevents then from truly discerning the spirit.
I agree.
This is where your theology gets crazy. Protestants are no less guaranteed their salvation? While I agree no one is “guaranteed,” you are basically saying that the saving grace of Catholic Sacraments are superfluous since they, apparently, make us no better off than Protestants. Of course later in the paragraph you seem to acknowledge that Catholics are on a better footing. I hope you’ll clarify this clear error.
I agree. But it’s inconsistent with your statement that being Catholic doesn’t make us any more likely to be saved. And, no: salvation can only come through the Church.
Peace
Sean
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OraLabora
Guest
I don’t purport to be a theologian.
The saving grace of Catholics is not superfluous. The problem is that most Catholics themselves don’t make full use of that grace, or allow it to penetrate their hearts. Rejecting that grace is what we all do when we sin. We may even have more at stake than Protestants, because we have full access to the fullness of sacramental grace, and they don’t, yet we still reject it by sinning.
To those who have been given much, much is expected.
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Vico
Guest
Baltimore Catechism No. 4, from Lesson 11:*** 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?**This may be a question that has been asked before, but I’m not on this forum that often. The Church seems pretty quiet on this lately, although St Augustine clearly states, no.
LOVE!
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.
Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.
In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.
Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?
If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.
If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.
I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.
I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.
I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bindex.htm
Nihil Obstat: D. J. McMahon
Censor Librorum
Imprimatur: *Michael Augustine
Archbishop of New York
New York, September 5, 1891
Nihil Obstat: Arthur J. Scanlan, STD
Censor Librorum
Imprimatur: *Patrick J. Hayes, D.D.
Archbishop of New York
New York, June 29, 1921
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Vico
Guest
Compendium of the Catholic ChurchThis may be a question that has been asked before, but I’m not on this forum that often. The Church seems pretty quiet on this lately, although St Augustine clearly states, no.
LOVE!
171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21
L 3,1169; De unit.:Patroligia Latina 4,509-536.
336 Lumen Gentium 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 Lumen Gentium 16; cf. Densinger-Schonmetzer Enchiridion Symbolorum 3866-3872.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21
L 3,1169; De unit.:Patroligia Latina 4,509-536.336 Lumen Gentium 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 Lumen Gentium 16; cf. Densinger-Schonmetzer Enchiridion Symbolorum 3866-3872.
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thistle
Guest
Baptism of desire is not invincible ignorance.
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thistle
Guest
I should have said Baptism of Desire - Explicit is not invincible ignorance.
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Sirach2
Guest
As we celebrated the feast of St. Barnabus yesterday, I meditated on his holy apostolate, especially noted in Acts 15. This thread reminds me of the Judaisers who insisted that the ONLY way to salvation was through circumcision and following the whole law of Moses with all its intricate prescriptions. This was the constant battle fought by St. Paul in many of his epistles, and it is the same battle we see in many of these threads on the forum.
Like the Judaisers, strict interpretation tells them the ONLY way to salvation is baptism in the RCC. And similarly, they will fight to the death for their interpretation. Yet the first Council of Jerusalem approved the new Way that Paul and Barnabus were using to bring Gentiles into the Church.
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
The Church has again spoken clearly about the matter of salvation and who may attain it, and it is not limited exclusively to Catholics. I think it would behoove the contenders to set aside their own rigid judgment and listen to what is being taught - today, especially after consensus reached in Vatican Council II deliberations. And by the way, nobody in this forum has ever claimed that evangelization is unnecessary, or that since they are “saved” why bother? It is an excuse to justify one’s own opinion and point fingers at those who follow the Church.
Like the Judaisers, strict interpretation tells them the ONLY way to salvation is baptism in the RCC. And similarly, they will fight to the death for their interpretation. Yet the first Council of Jerusalem approved the new Way that Paul and Barnabus were using to bring Gentiles into the Church.
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
The Church has again spoken clearly about the matter of salvation and who may attain it, and it is not limited exclusively to Catholics. I think it would behoove the contenders to set aside their own rigid judgment and listen to what is being taught - today, especially after consensus reached in Vatican Council II deliberations. And by the way, nobody in this forum has ever claimed that evangelization is unnecessary, or that since they are “saved” why bother? It is an excuse to justify one’s own opinion and point fingers at those who follow the Church.
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OraLabora
Guest
meltzerboy
New member
Perhaps the Judaizers (Jewish Christians) believed what you state. However, it is important to note that this is NOT based on ancient or modern Judaism. In fact, the notion of eternal salvation in heaven is a Christian idea, for when the Hebrew Bible speaks of salvation (or redemption), it refers to earthly salvation of the Jewish people as a whole, not individual salvation. This is not to say that Judaism rejects the idea of heaven and purgatory; it is suggested in the Scriptures and was a tenet of the Pharisees, as well as bodily resurrection in the end of days being one of the thirteen principles of Jewish faith according to Maimonides. But the focus of Judaism–as I have pointed out numerous times before–has always been on love of G-d and neighbor, and obedience of His commandments to the best of one’s ability in the present life, rather than concern or speculation about the afterlife.
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