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saint_rafael
Guest
It could just be that God sent these weak men to the Church as a chastisement. When God is mad at the Church, he sends bad clergy.
God allowed these weak papacies as a punishment for the sins of the Church.
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God allowed these weak papacies as a punishment for the sins of the Church.
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ethelzguy
Guest
What is your source for this proclamation?
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I_Believe
Guest
While I won’t go as far as calling anyone bad clergy, due to my respect for anyone who devotes their life to God, I will agree that what you propose is possible. Anyone can lose the Faith.
I feel our Faith has been tested. I had never thought of the time after VII as a test of Faith until hearing the words of a Redemptorist Missionary at a TLM. I don’t believe he would disagree with your thoughts in general.
Anything that happens in the Church, happens because God wills it, IMO. That said, if the traditionalists were/are wrong, and the situation we have come to call the “crisis”, is God’s true will and direction in which He wishes us to continue, I find it hard to believe we would be seeing the easing back into traditional ways our Holy Father BXVI is promoting.
I don’t detest the results of VII or those who enabled the crisis to manifest. I bear them as a cross. And do so with great hope for the Church, due to the strong Faith I sense in Pope BXVI, and H.E.'s Hoyos and Ranjith.
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saint_rafael
Guest
The problem with that would be that the Holy Spirit got it wrong and the Church had it wrong until the 1960’s.
How can the Church be in error for almost 2,000 years? That is why that position is impossible.
The problem is that this goes back further than Vatican II. I believe that men have rejected God’s plan for the Church in the last 150 years. Pope Pius IX and Pius X tried to stop modernism and the avalanche. They delayed it , but couldn’t stop it. Vatican II accelerated it and made it sort of official.
The Holy Spirit at this time is trying to save as many souls as he can, but he is also preparing those who will lead the restoration of the Church.
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LRThunder
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What I’m tired of seeing and hearing are groups at BOTH extreme ends of the argument using Vatican II as a sword to attack the other.
For those who don’t prefer the Latin Mass, that’s fine. But don’t sneer at it or if anyone prefers the Sacraments celebrated traditionally.
For those who don’t prefer the current Mass, well it is the normative Mass and determining whether or not the Mass will be in Latin or the vernacular is a disciplinary decision.
If we think liturgical decisions need to be questioned, we must do so charitably. Having a hostile tone will not only not work, but it will cause people to not want to listen to the position you might be taking.
The Catholic Church was the Catholic Church before AND after Vatican II. It’s time that both extremes realize that it didn’t end one church and create another.
For those who don’t prefer the Latin Mass, that’s fine. But don’t sneer at it or if anyone prefers the Sacraments celebrated traditionally.
For those who don’t prefer the current Mass, well it is the normative Mass and determining whether or not the Mass will be in Latin or the vernacular is a disciplinary decision.
If we think liturgical decisions need to be questioned, we must do so charitably. Having a hostile tone will not only not work, but it will cause people to not want to listen to the position you might be taking.
The Catholic Church was the Catholic Church before AND after Vatican II. It’s time that both extremes realize that it didn’t end one church and create another.
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NicPais83
Guest
I don’t like to get involved in arguments like this, but it just doesn’t seem right insulting the Vicar of Christ and Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
On a side note, as someone who was born well after the Council, I do not in the least bit consider myself a progressive or anything. A good analysis of the development of the Roman Mass is given here:
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/MASS.TXT
This was written in 1934. Interestingly, the early Mass looks a lot like the Novus Ordo to me.
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saint_rafael
Guest
The Catholic Church is still the Church before and after Vatican II, however before Vatican II, it was healthy and there was one religion. After Vatican II, there are two religions in the form of taditional Catholicism and Modernism. The Church is not healthy but in ruins, near death.
Jesus said the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, but Jesus didn’t say the devil wouldn’t get close to it or that the gates of hell would almost triumph.
The promise of Jesus is a great consolation but that does not mean we go to sleep while the Church falls apart and the devil SEEMS to to win.
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I_Believe
Guest
Well, my point is, and I suppose I didn’t convey it well, is that the Church was right before the Modernists gained hold.
Again, overall, I agree with your views.
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EasterJoy
Guest
John Paul II… a blockhead?!? Not a theologian?
You’re willing to think that Providence does not just allow but sends bad clergy on purpose? In His anger, God particularly arranges to put the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in bad hands, in order to punish His Bride? Where on earth could you possibly get an idea like that?!?
I am at a loss…Have you taken leave of your senses? Where could theology like this possibly come from?
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EasterJoy
Guest
He also said, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.” It wasn’t “You are saint rafael…”
It is not obedience to Rome that will put us in the ditch. When we start having every layperson thinking they are some sort of heirarchy of one who can dictate which way the Church Militant should march and that they know what Councils meant by their documents better than the bishops who actually attended the Councils and wrote the documents, then we’ll be heading towards ruin.
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[SIGN]AMEN[/SIGN] I truly believe you hit the nail squarely on the head!Please folks, we need to stop this belittling of each other’s believes when it comes to the forms of the Mass. I pray and trust the Holy Spirit is in charge of Holy Mother Church!
Mahalo LRThunder!
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saint_rafael
Guest
Pope John Paul II was not a theologian like Joseph Ratzinger. He didn’t spend a career in theology as a theologian.
Karol Wojtyla got his Phd in Philosophy with a dissertation on the philosophy of Max Scheler. He also got another one on the theology of St. John of the Cross, but his career was as a philosopher and his philosophy was phenomenology.
He was ignorant in liturgy. There were many instances of paganism in the liturgies he did around the world. Everytime he went to Africa, Asia, Latin America, and oceania, the pagan customs and music of those cultures were included in the Mass. You had naked women and men in their native costumes in the liturgy as lectures, dancers, around the altar. You had the pagan music playing through parts of the Mass. You had Pope John Paul II dancing and acting like a fool sometimes. He wore their costumes and did some of their rituals.
Pope John Paul II scandalized many of the faithful in the Church and that paganism was saraligious.
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Like
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by saint rafael View Post
As far as Pope John Paul II, I would honestly state that he was a blockhead when it came to liturgy. Liturgy was his biggest weakness. This was because Pope John Paul II was really a philosopher and not a theologian. End Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by saint rafael View Post
It could just be that God sent these weak men to the Church as a chastisement. When God is mad at the Church, he sends bad clergy.
God allowed these weak papacies as a punishment for the sins of the Church. End Quote
saint rafael, I sincerely pray you don’t believe these statements!
Originally Posted by saint rafael View Post
As far as Pope John Paul II, I would honestly state that he was a blockhead when it came to liturgy. Liturgy was his biggest weakness. This was because Pope John Paul II was really a philosopher and not a theologian. End Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by saint rafael View Post
It could just be that God sent these weak men to the Church as a chastisement. When God is mad at the Church, he sends bad clergy.
God allowed these weak papacies as a punishment for the sins of the Church. End Quote
saint rafael, I sincerely pray you don’t believe these statements!
John Paul II… a blockhead?!? Not a theologian?
You’re willing to think that Providence does not just allow but sends bad clergy on purpose? In His anger, God particularly arranges to put the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in bad hands, in order to punish His Bride? Where on earth could you possibly get an idea like that?!?
I am at a loss…Have you taken leave of your senses? Where could theology like this possibly come from?
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saint_rafael
Guest
I believe the prophesies of Marie-Julie Jahenny explains the crisis. She has apporoval from the Church and her messages are private revelation.
Marie-Julie Jahenny, the mystic and Stigmatist of La Fraudais.
She is one of the greatest mystics of the Church.
God gave her many prophecies and graces.
She had a vision of a dialogue between Our Lord and Lucifer and the latter said :
“I will attack the Church. I will overthrow the Cross, I will decimate the people, I will deposit a great weakness of Faith in hearts. There will also be A GREAT DENIAL OF RELIGION. For a time I will be MASTER of all things, everything will be under MY CONTROL, even Your temple and all Your people.”
"Saint Michael says that Satan will have possession of everything for some time and that he will reign completely over everything ; that all goodness, Faith, Religion will be buried in the tomb. . . Satan and his own will triumph with joy, but after this triumph, the Lord will in His turn gather His own people and will REIGN and TRIUMPH OVER EVIL and WILL RAISE UP from the tomb the buried Church, the prostrated Cross. . . "
Marie-Julie saw that "there will not remain any vestige of the Holy Sacrifice, no apparent trace of faith. CONFUSION will be everywhere.
Marie-Julie Jahenny (June 1881)
In their [priests] aberration, they will break their oaths. The Book of Life contains a list of names that ‘rends the heart.’
"Because of the little respect it has for the apostles of God, the flock grows careless and ceases to observe the laws. The priest himself is responsible for the lack of respect because he does not respect enough his holy ministry, and the place which he occupies in his sacred functions. The flock follows in the footsteps of its pastors; this is a great tragedy.
"The clergy will be severely punished on account of their inconceivable fickleness and great cowardice which is incompatible with their functions.
She [Marie-Julie Jahenny] says that “those who govern the Flock”, will be responsible for the coming crisis. Apparently, Communism would not have triumphed if the Church had remained faithful. She mentions the growing freedom enjoyed by priests and bishops and how badly they will use it.
communityofhopeinc.org/Prayer%20Pages/Saints/marie%20julie.html
Marie-Julie Jahenny, the mystic and Stigmatist of La Fraudais.
She is one of the greatest mystics of the Church.
God gave her many prophecies and graces.
She had a vision of a dialogue between Our Lord and Lucifer and the latter said :
“I will attack the Church. I will overthrow the Cross, I will decimate the people, I will deposit a great weakness of Faith in hearts. There will also be A GREAT DENIAL OF RELIGION. For a time I will be MASTER of all things, everything will be under MY CONTROL, even Your temple and all Your people.”
"Saint Michael says that Satan will have possession of everything for some time and that he will reign completely over everything ; that all goodness, Faith, Religion will be buried in the tomb. . . Satan and his own will triumph with joy, but after this triumph, the Lord will in His turn gather His own people and will REIGN and TRIUMPH OVER EVIL and WILL RAISE UP from the tomb the buried Church, the prostrated Cross. . . "
Marie-Julie saw that "there will not remain any vestige of the Holy Sacrifice, no apparent trace of faith. CONFUSION will be everywhere.
Marie-Julie Jahenny (June 1881)
In their [priests] aberration, they will break their oaths. The Book of Life contains a list of names that ‘rends the heart.’
"Because of the little respect it has for the apostles of God, the flock grows careless and ceases to observe the laws. The priest himself is responsible for the lack of respect because he does not respect enough his holy ministry, and the place which he occupies in his sacred functions. The flock follows in the footsteps of its pastors; this is a great tragedy.
"The clergy will be severely punished on account of their inconceivable fickleness and great cowardice which is incompatible with their functions.
She [Marie-Julie Jahenny] says that “those who govern the Flock”, will be responsible for the coming crisis. Apparently, Communism would not have triumphed if the Church had remained faithful. She mentions the growing freedom enjoyed by priests and bishops and how badly they will use it.
communityofhopeinc.org/Prayer%20Pages/Saints/marie%20julie.html
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PrayforMallory
Guest
That’s really interesting.
I was wondering about something. The controversies surrounding the pontificate of John Paul II. Does anybody know of any of his writings where he (or anyone else) defends things like Assisi, etc.?
I’ve become more interested in this as of late.
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Like
Guest
I can’t believe what you’ve typed here! This is what gives Traditionalist a bad name! I’m a Traditionalist nearly 3 times your age and seen many things in the Church that I’ve been disappointed with, but never would of dreamed or believed that God would send bad or evil clergy or worst yet a Pope to test His Church!
Hard to believe you would judge the soul of a Holy man of God because of reading some anti-Pope JP II material not in communion with HMC!
You are in my prayers!
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ethelzguy
Guest
True words of wisdom.
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estesbob
Guest
In your opinion who was the last legitimate Pope?
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saint_rafael
Guest
Last time I checked Pope Benedict XVI was still the Pope. Pope John Paul II and Pope Paul VI were valid Popes.
I am a traditional Catholic and not a sedevacantist. I don’t know why people automatically believe traditional Catholics believe in their errors. I have always refuted that error.
I believe that sedevacantists and conservaive neo-Catholics have more in common with each other. Both groups fall into Papal idolatry and tend to worship the Pope because both believe they cannot err.
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estesbob
Guest
Well that’s a new on on me. What exactly is a conservative neo-Catholics ? Could I venture a guess that that is someone who doesn’t believe John Paul the Great was a Blockhead?
I have a hard time following your posts but to be honest they do tend to reek a bit of a condescening attitude seasoned with a wee bit of arrogance. I tell you this not to take a dig at you ( I am sometimes guilty of both myself) but to let you know why it is that people may soon quit responding to your posts.
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