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PJM
Guest
What’s your view?
Can salvation ever be “lost?”
Can salvation ever be “lost?”
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SonSearcher
Guest
Yes.
2 Peter 2:20
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Hebrews 6 4-8
4 For it is impossible[a] to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
2 Peter 2:20
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Hebrews 6 4-8
4 For it is impossible[a] to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
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captainmike
Guest
What does this mean?
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SonSearcher
Guest
I think you have to take the whole phrase together.
"For it is impossible[a] to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened"
This probably refers to baptism (enlightenment). The beginning of seeing the “light” of salvation. The initial incorporation into Christ. It cannot be done more than once.
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vames
Guest
This is demonstrably true. It’s something that I think about these days, when the Way of the Cross advances to the 7th station - “Jesus falls the second time”. Anyone who has “fallen” again after a period of avoiding sin knows it.
On the other hand, salvation is not lost until the last minutes of our conscious life - repentance at the moment of death can save a soul.
And on the other hand, I have always wondered whether a truly good and mostly sinless life can really be compromised by a single sin committed just before death. Some say that God’s grace protects good people from such situations. Or that truly good people simply can’t commit grave sins will full knowledge. And perhaps this is true. Anyhow, I still struggle with this question.
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SonSearcher
Guest
But in this day and age it is always good to promote Truth in relation to untruths. For example **you can lose salvation vs. once saved always saved. **
It is definitely one of those hard sayings. But they tend to keep honest folks honest.
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BA11
Guest
Do I believe you can besaved and then at some point in the future no longer be saved? Yes. The bible seems to indicate that one who walks away from God and abandons the gospel can and will lose their salvation.
Now, do I believe that we can commit a sin or set or sins apart from leaving the faith that causes us to lose our salvation? I am undecided but tend to lean towards no. The entire context of the bible tends to make me believe that a truly redeemed follow of Christ will not lose their salvation through any individual sin, namely because the truly reborn among us is no longer capable of committing the kind of heinous crimes that such a thing would entail. It’s a tough subject because the “where they really saved to begin with” argument always comes up, and I tendto believe someone who goes out and rapes and murders was never truly born again.
So yes, based on the bible I believe we can “lose” our salvation through our free will. I lean towards believing that a truly reborn soul, assuming he perserveres in the faith, will remain sealed through the blood of Christ.
Now, do I believe that we can commit a sin or set or sins apart from leaving the faith that causes us to lose our salvation? I am undecided but tend to lean towards no. The entire context of the bible tends to make me believe that a truly redeemed follow of Christ will not lose their salvation through any individual sin, namely because the truly reborn among us is no longer capable of committing the kind of heinous crimes that such a thing would entail. It’s a tough subject because the “where they really saved to begin with” argument always comes up, and I tendto believe someone who goes out and rapes and murders was never truly born again.
So yes, based on the bible I believe we can “lose” our salvation through our free will. I lean towards believing that a truly reborn soul, assuming he perserveres in the faith, will remain sealed through the blood of Christ.
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BA11
Guest
This cannot be as it would place limitations of the power of both God and Christ’s death. Such a thing would contradict the entire meaning of the gospel at it’s very foundation.
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SonSearcher
Guest
I feel you are quite correct. If a person is really truly a person of faith that perseveres we should assume he/she will obtain the salvation they seek.
But the question is… can we lose it?.. You can take on God, you can be born again in Baptism, you can begin a journey of faith but if you choose to disobey and you turn against God you choose to be judged. You choose to lose it.
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SonSearcher
Guest
Elaborate please. How does the choice of an individual to renounce their baptism contradict the Gospel?
From the Catechism…
1216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself:9
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BA11
Guest
I agree. My only quetion has always been what exactly constitutes full blown rebellion against the faith? Does it require a complete denouncement of faith, or merely a “backsliding” episode?
I hope to always be graced with true faith and never have to worry about it
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BA11
Guest
Maybe I misunderstood, I took your post to mean that someone who reounces their faith can never be saved again at some point in the future. I believe God is always willing to take the fallen back, even if they had previously been saved. Saying that he wouldnt or couldnt seems to contradict scripture.
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SonSearcher
Guest
Amen to that. I think it ultimately comes down to your personal relationship with God. It could probably be on a wide spectrum from backslide to denouncement, but saying no is saying no.I agree. My only quetion has always been what exactly constitutes full blown rebellion against the faith? Does it require a complete denouncement of faith, or merely a “backsliding” episode?
I hope to always be graced with true faith and never have to worry about it
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SonSearcher
Guest
Oh, No prob. They can be still be saved after they repent again. It merely states that you cannot be baptized more than once. You can always fall and return to a state of grace.
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Joy2day
Guest
I have a question - what happens if someone is in church & folliwing along etc. & then meets some people at church (maybe even a clergy member) who they think highly of, but who are actually a bad influence ie. they introduce & suggest to this person some bad ideas which are against church teaching & the person succumbs to their influence. Now what if the bad ideas were about matters the person had not really thought that much about or really understood why they were wrong? Lets say that without having met thesecpeople, the bad ideas = bad behaviour would never have entered the person’s head.?
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SonSearcher
Guest
If the person doesn’t know it is bad or wrong they are grace with invincible ignorance… but woe to the one teaching the little ones wrong.
Matthew 18:6
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“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be
better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I like this paragraph from Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:
24Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize ? So run that you may obtain. 25And every one that striveth for the mastery, refraineth himself from all things: and they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible one. 26I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: 27But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
BTW, I like your signature and have used it a couple of times already in discussions. I could not remember where I had seen it until I entered this thread and saw it again. Thanks for that.
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SonSearcher
Guest
Thank you for that reading. It definitely adds to the discussion.
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Third_Day
Guest
.
Paul tells "saved " Christians “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” Ephesians 5:5-6
Paul addresses the Ephesians as “saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus” yet he warns that they could lose their inheritance
Here the writer of Hebrews says that a man sanctified by the blood of Christ could lose his salvation.
Note: The writer includes himself.
Hebrews 10:26 For if** we** sin deliberately after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries….how much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace?..It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
What about someone who willfully commits adultery or fornication is he still saved?
Would you say that the only people committing adultery and fornication “were never really saved?”
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ChibiViolet
Guest
One’s salvation can only be lost if they are to die in a state of mortal sin.
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