Can or Does True Islam exist?

[ralphinal]

When something bad done in the name of Islam is done, we are told that this does not represent True Islam. In fairness to our Muslim friends, I would like to understand if True Islam exists today, if it ever did exist, and if it can exist.

 

[Jamison97]

I say that the original Sunni Muslim perspective was nearly as good as Catholicism but got screwed with and tweaked around until it basically doesn’t even exist anymore. The original teachings of Mohammed are not in the hearts of Muslims anymore.

 

[meedo]

When something bad done in the name of Islam is done, we are told that this does not represent True Islam. In fairness to our Muslim friends, I would like to understand if True Islam exists today, if it ever did exist, and if it can exist.

No one nation today has fully original Islam. Islam exists fragmented in many cultures and nations. There is no one nation today that combines the truth of Islam.

True Islam varies from age to age. Just as an example on top of my head , At a time long ago , islam strived to eliminate slavery. Now True Islam is not to eliminate slavery but more to fight human trafficking .

There are muslim nations that are better than others in different things. Turkey and Indonesia has free and fair elections. Egypt has very hospitable and kind people and great islamic universities . Egyptian scholars are great in terms of islamic Jurisprudence . Saudis scholars are very accurate in terms of Islamic creed. On the down side, saudi is very rigid in culture and does over the top stuff. Egyptian people are very westernized. While pakistan and afghanistan have not so nice cultural practices that are very unfair to women and end up referring it to Islam.

There are two people who are believing muslim rulers . Receb Ardogan ( Turkey) and the former prime minister of Malasya Mahatir Muhammed. Apart from these two the rest are dictators really. so their countries don’t thrive.

in Short , there is no place right now on this earth that muslims can point at and say there ´you will find true Islam.

 

[ralphinal]

No one nation today has fully original Islam. Islam exists fragmented in many cultures and nations. There is no one nation today that combines the truth of Islam.

Alright

True Islam varies from age to age. Just as an example on top of my head , At a time long ago , islam strived to eliminate slavery. Now True Islam is not to eliminate slavery but more to fight human trafficking .

So, does the Truth change with time? Are you saying that Islam today allows slavery and it did not use to?

There are muslim nations that are better than others in different things. Turkey and Indonesia has free and fair elections. Egypt has very hospitable and kind people and great islamic universities . Egyptian scholars are great in terms of islamic Jurisprudence . Saudis scholars are very accurate in terms of Islamic creed. On the down side, saudi is very rigid in culture and does over the top stuff. Egyptian people are very westernized. While pakistan and afghanistan have not so nice cultural practices that are very unfair to women and end up referring it to Islam.

DOes this mean that no nation can truly follow Islam? Is it too easy to corrupt by men?

There are two people who are believing muslim rulers . Receb Ardogan ( Turkey) and the former prime minister of Malasya Mahatir Muhammed. Apart from these two the rest are dictators really. so their countries don’t thrive.

I agree. Does Islam lend itself more easily to dictators? There are not a lot of Islamic democracies. And some of the ones that exist are not really democratic

in Short , there is no place right now on this earth that muslims can point at and say there ´you will find true Islam.

Thnks for the answer. Now, do you think that a True Islamic NAtion can exist or will they always fall short?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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When something bad done in the name of Islam is done, we are told that this does not represent True Islam. .

If anyone claims that " This is Islam " , s/he must show proof from holy Quran or from authentic hadith ( that does not contradict holy Quran. )

When video is available online claiming that a girl got 100 lashes because she refused to marry a taliban leader, this is not Islam as Quran does not allow men to do so.

No one can force any woman to marry him. We know of minimum 2 women who refused to marry Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) . He did not torture them.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Are you saying that Islam today allows slavery

Islam did not introduce slavery. It encouraged Muslims to freed slaves , to marry slaves etc.

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) ordered Muslims not to separate kids from parents. He showed such kindness to the slave boy Zaid that when his father came & Prophet allowed Zaid to go , he refused to go to his parent & chose to stay with the Prophet.

Liberate, Emancipate and Marry Slaves

Verses From The Glorious Qur’an

Marry: Slaves and Maid Servants; Emancipation,

Qur’an 24:27-34 Surah An-Nur (Light):

Tell the believing men… And tell the believing women… And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid servants. If they be poor; Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.

And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing of emancipation, write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you.

Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful…

Compiled by Dr. A. Zahoor and Dr. Z. Haq

themodernreligion.com/misc/slave/slavery_verses.htm

 

[ralphinal]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

If anyone claims that " This is Islam " , s/he must show proof from holy Quran or from authentic hadith ( that does not contradict holy Quran. )

When video is available online claiming that a girl got 100 lashes because she refused to marry a taliban leader, this is not Islam as Quran does not allow men to do so.

No one can force any woman to marry him. We know of minimum 2 women who refused to marry Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) . He did not torture them.

Thanks for the information, but can you answer the guestion?

Does true Islam exist? Can true Islam exist?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Does true Islam exist? Can true Islam exist?

Yes

If we all strive to submitted fully to God alone , then it will be possible . All Prophets (pbut) devoted to the Lord of the Worlds & established His commands in this world.

After the second coming of Jesus (pbuh) , we will surely see how he establishes peace & justice according to Islamic laws. Till then , we must strive hard to obey God , follow His commands & gives importance on God’s laws rather than men made laws.

 

[Reuben_J]

Does true Islam exist? Can true Islam exist?

Since true Islam has never existed, is it really relevant at all then?

 

[ralphinal]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Yes

If we all strive to submitted fully to God alone , then it will be possible . All Prophets (pbut) devoted to the Lord of the Worlds & established His commands in this world.

After the second coming of Jesus (pbuh) , we will surely see how he establishes peace & justice according to Islamic laws. Till then , we must strive hard to obey God , follow His commands & gives importance on God’s laws rather than men made laws.

This post contradict itself. First, you say that man can choose to follow God perfectly. then, you say that man can only strive to follow God perfectly until forced to do so.

Which is it? Can man follow God perfectly on his own or not?

 

[ralphinal]

Since true Islam has never existed, is it really relevant at all then?

If it has never existed, does not exist, and cannot exist, it is a flawed system. If it is a flawed system, God did not create it.

 

[tomarin]

If it has never existed, does not exist, and cannot exist, it is a flawed system. If it is a flawed system, God did not create it.

Why didn’t you tell us this at the beginning of the thread, if you already knew? Don’t you think it’s more honest to be up front about your point of view, rather than posing as a disinterested observer?

 

[ralphinal]

Why didn’t you tell us this at the beginning of the thread, if you already knew? Don’t you think it’s more honest to be up front about your point of view, rather than posing as a disinterested observer?

That was an answer to Rubin’s post. IT is not my position. My position is one of confusion. We are told a lot of things about Islam, and what is and is not True Islam. What we are never told is if True Islam exists beyond a personal level or if it ever did. From what I can see, it does not. I am trying to understand this whole thing.

If True Islam did exist before and can exist again, it changes the discussion.

 

[tomarin]

That was an answer to Rubin’s post. IT is not my position. My position is one of confusion. We are told a lot of things about Islam, and what is and is not True Islam. What we are never told is if True Islam exists beyond a personal level or if it ever did. From what I can see, it does not. I am trying to understand this whole thing.

If True Islam did exist before and can exist again, it changes the discussion.

I think they believe the Islamic state that Mohammad founded was a true Islamic state. If it wasn’t, then I don’t know what the point of their belief system is.

 

[Contarini]

When something bad done in the name of Islam is done, we are told that this does not represent True Islam.

This is a silly argument–just as silly as the claim that moderate Muslims don’t represent “True Islam.”

Let’s just scratch this whole “True Islam” business and observe what Muslims actually have believed and done historically, and what they believe and do today. That means that we have to stop taking the evil acts of a few as somehow representative of “True Islam,” but of course you are right that we also should not claim that there is something called “True Islam” that excludes what these folks do.

It is fair for Muslims to say that evil actions don’t represent “True Islam,” but we need to recognize that they are simply saying that their understanding of Islam condemns such actions. Just as when we say that something done by Christians (or, if you prefer, “nominal” Christians, though I avoid this locution) is not representative of “true Christianity.” That means something to us, but it would mean nothing if said by a non-Christian and we shouldn’t expect non-Christians to talk that way.

Edwin

 

[hamba2han]

On the Day of Judgment when God will send many of His creations to the Hell-fire, Muslims consider this to be ‘good’ because this punishment comes from their Creator and therefore since all that Allah decrees is good, it is definitely “true Islam”.

I strongly suspect however that most Christians consider the divine act of sending people to Hell on Judgment Day to be ‘bad’ and therefore according to them, it cannot be “true Christianity”.

 

[Contarini]

On the Day of Judgment when God will send many of His creations to the Hell-fire, Muslims consider this to be ‘good’ because this punishment comes from their Creator and therefore since all that Allah decrees is good, it is definitely “true Islam”.

I strongly suspect however that most Christians consider the divine act of sending people to Hell on Judgment Day to be ‘bad’ and therefore according to them, it cannot be “true Christianity”.

Many traditional (particularly Western) Christians would agree with you. I had an argument with a traditional Catholic friend of mine once about this. I hold to the view that is common today among many Christians, that (in the words of C. S. Lewis) “the gates of hell are locked on the inside.” My friend insisted (following Aquinas) that damnation is a good thing insofar as it’s an act of justice.

Of course, this is still a bit different from your argument, which derives purely from the fact that God has decreed such punishment. Many Christians hold to this “divine command theory” by which a thing is good only because Almighty God has willed it, but I consider divine command theory (at least in its most radical version) to be a form of demon worship.

Edwin

 

[ralphinal]

Many traditional (particularly Western) Christians would agree with you. I had an argument with a traditional Catholic friend of mine once about this. I hold to the view that is common today among many Christians, that (in the words of C. S. Lewis) “the gates of hell are locked on the inside.” My friend insisted (following Aquinas) that damnation is a good thing insofar as it’s an act of justice.

Of course, this is still a bit different from your argument, which derives purely from the fact that God has decreed such punishment. Many Christians hold to this “divine command theory” by which a thing is good only because Almighty God has willed it, but I consider divine command theory (at least in its most radical version) to be a form of demon worship.

Edwin

God does not call evil good or good evil. Divine command can, when taken to the extreme, allow God to flip the universe and call evil good.

Those who are damned are damned by their own acts, not because God decided to send them tehre.

 

[meedo]

Alright

So, does the Truth change with time? Are you saying that Islam today allows slavery and it did not use to?

No , truth doesn’t change with time. Islam doesn’t allow slavery now. But the new slavery, the hidden slavery now is human trafficking . Thus Islam fights human trafficking. If slavery ever arise again then Islam will fight it.

DOes this mean that no nation can truly follow Islam? Is it too easy to corrupt by men?

No. Any nation can follow Islam truthfully. It is just not happening at this time . Islam is not easily corrupted by men. But if you don’t practice it it wont show its fruits.

I agree. Does Islam lend itself more easily to dictators? There are not a lot of Islamic democracies. And some of the ones that exist are not really democratic

No . Look at the arab world. All dictators are hugely oppressing any Islamic movement within their countries. Look on the other hand to Malaysia or turkey. They have believing and practicing Muslim rulers. Islam thrives where free will is allowed to the people.

Thnks for the answer. Now, do you think that a True Islamic NAtion can exist or will they always fall short?

Yes i think it will exist but it will need time. The muslim world is slowly realising the importance of Islam. when we throw away the dictators in our countries we will be able to develop truly as islam wants us to develop.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think they believe the Islamic state that Mohammad founded was a true Islamic state. If it wasn’t, then I don’t know what the point of their belief system is.

As a person who has not been convinced in the truth of Islam, I have this to say.

Historical record of Mohammad’s reign is rather fuzzy where followers and later adherents sort of competing to narrate his life and rules. And these narrations are composed and sometimes customed simply to toe the line of their interpretation of the Quran. Today it is called the Hadith and Muslims will tell us that authentic Hadith is determined and vetted through scientific process. In reality this is not fool-proof at all and today Muslims are divided in whether to hold unto the truth of the Hadith or not.

However, basically what we see today is that Mohammad’s rules had gone through intensive editing to make them look good. The lust for Zainab and the child bride Aishah are sort of being spruced up to make them look normal instead of an adultery and pedophilia. Then there were Mohammad’s war feats and killings. All of these had gone through intensive apologetic cosmetic retouches you might be forgiven to think that Mohammad actually was running a welfare service instead of war of conquest.

In any case the religion of Islam is a religion of shameless mitigation. You should not kill but it is allowed in certain circumstance. You should not lie but it is alright if your life is in danger or if you forget your wife’s birthday. You should not commit adultery but it is allowed if Mohammad did it. You cannot have more than four wives but it is OK if Mohammad wanted another even if he had exceeded the quota. On top it all, anything goes if it is for the cause of Allah.

With so many blemishes in a supposedly impeccable rule, Mohammad’s reign cannot qualify as true Islamic state. You’d have the impression that it was all done for the self interest of one man – Mohammad.

Some Muslims consider the first four caliphates as authentic Islamic states. But as we can see, these fare no better. The Caliphs were assassinated and their reigns filled with many dishonest palace intrigues, hardly what you would expect according to what Islam claims it to be.

So I say there has never been a true Islamic state. And Ralph said it – it is a flawed system. And I kind of agree.