Can people change?

[Kit15]

From this and other posts (in different threads) about your ex, it’s clear that he is rotten inside.

I don’t think that kind of trait has anything to do with a person’s faith. There are atheists who are good people, there are Catholics who beat their wives.

Some people who are like this are mentally ill and can’t help themselves, others have brains that work differently in that they are incapable of empathy, others were abused as children and their mental development was messed up. These people can still believe that the Catholic Church is the true faith. Look at all the religious people in prisons, being religious doesn’t save you from being a dirtbag, a criminal, and otherwise evil.

I can’t really tell you why some people harm others and do evil while others live wholesome moral lives. But I can tell you that I know plenty of non-Catholics who are upstanding individuals.

I was going to say the same thing. While it is not my intention to downplay what happened regarding you and your ex. But being non-Catholic is not a pre-requisite for scumbaggery. He sounds like a downright nasty man regardless of what faith he’d profess to be in. A validly baptized scumbag is still a scumbag in spite of his/her valid baptism.

I also married a non-Catholic and while I did not enter this commitment with any delusions of grandeur…I’ve grown up with this guy and I’ve watched how he treats other people and I have been happy with how I have been treated. I think I can safely say that scumbaggery isn’t really in his nature…

I mean yeah I’d never *recommend *marrying a non-Catholic just because you automatically don’t have to deal with what we have to deal with. But blessings can come in disguise. Having him around has *greatly *improved my personal prayer life in a way that I didn’t get from my Catholic family and fostered a desire to learn more about Catholicism for myself (which is why I attend forums like CAF). He does ask me questions occasionally and I like to able to give him *real *answers instead of lofty ones.

However I am one person. It’s very hard to put it in black and white terms. Yes mixed relationships have a significant disadvantage. Yes the non-Catholic party may never change. But that doesn’t mean non-Catholic spouses never change at all. You will hear stories about marriages that lead the non-Catholic to conversion, happy and contented mixed marriages that are still mixed, but also stories that contain regrets and “what-if’s”.

Pray…a lot. Talk to your significant other…a lot. Yes or no questions won’t cut it. And maintain a healthy suspension of belief and don’t let the joys of being in love cloud your vision. Please consider 1ke’s list. They are *very *good questions.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I can see the confusion. Sorry. Let me be specific…

Often people like my xh aren’t particularly religious in their outlook. Hard to worship God when you have taken that role for yourself.

So it becomes difficult for the person who is being mesmerized by their charm act to differentiate whether their lack of religion is a fatal flaw or a temporary stumbling block. I guessed wrong, to my own detriment.

Character is what we do when nobody is looking. How someone lives before we meet them is a good indication of whether their change when we come along is an act.

Having said that, my family has more than its share of converts to the faith. But they had that taken care of before they walked down the aisle.

I’d just hate to see someone else taken in by a conversion show, or ignore that OFTEN a lack of any religious belief or practice bears looking into and deep reflection as to its deeper significance in someone’s life.

If I hadn’t made excuses for my xh’s lack of going to church and weak prayer life and just kept looking, I wouldn’t have had to find all the other stuff out the hard way. I am just a lonely voice here saying I regret giving too much credit where none was due when I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Your mileage may vary.

 

[flyingfish]

I can see the confusion. Sorry. Let me be specific…

Often people like my xh aren’t particularly religious in their outlook. Hard to worship God when you have taken that role for yourself.

So it becomes difficult for the person who is being mesmerized by their charm act to differentiate whether their lack of religion is a fatal flaw or a temporary stumbling block. I guessed wrong, to my own detriment.

Character is what we do when nobody is looking. How someone lives before we meet them is a good indication of whether their change when we come along is an act.

Having said that, my family has more than its share of converts to the faith. But they had that taken care of before they walked down the aisle.

I’d just hate to see someone else taken in by a conversion show, or ignore that OFTEN a lack of any religious belief or practice bears looking into and deep reflection as to its deeper significance in someone’s life.

If I hadn’t made excuses for my xh’s lack of going to church and weak prayer life and just kept looking, I wouldn’t have had to find all the other stuff out the hard way. I am just a lonely voice here saying I regret giving too much credit where none was due when I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Your mileage may vary.

Your husband was who he was because of a mental defect. Narcissists aren’t normal people.

If you’re right and most narcissists aren’t religious, it doesn’t follow that most people who aren’t religious are narcissists.

The atheists and agnostics I know aren’t any more self absorbed or “evil” than the Catholics I know. They just don’t think there is enough evidence to believe in God or belong to a particular faith. Many of them would like to believe in the supernatural but feel there’s no evidence for it. It’s not fair to those people to imply that their lack of belief is a symptom of them having taken the role of God for themselves the way your ex did.

 

[rpp]

Your husband was who he was because of a mental defect. Narcissists aren’t normal people.

If you’re right and most narcissists aren’t religious, it doesn’t follow that most people who aren’t religious are narcissists.

The atheists and agnostics I know aren’t any more self absorbed or “evil” than the Catholics I know. They just don’t think there is enough evidence to believe in God or belong to a particular faith. Many of them would like to believe in the supernatural but feel there’s no evidence for it. It’s not fair to those people to imply that their lack of belief is a symptom of them having taken the role of God for themselves the way your ex did.

You know I do not understand your expressions of utter hatred. Are YOU the ex-husband? Why the constant personal attacks? What did Liberanosamalo do to you, molest your child? ! Knock it off. You behavior makes me think you are about as Christian as Charles Dawkins.

 

[flyingfish]

You know I do not understand your expressions of utter hatred. Are YOU the ex-husband? Why the constant personal attacks? What did Liberanosamalo do to you, molest your child? ! Knock it off. You behavior makes me think you are about as Christian as Charles Dawkins.

What personal attacks I am not justifying what her husband did, I read her posts about him and I think he’s a worthless SOB.

I just don’t agree with her point of view on this particular subject, and I think she’s wrong to compare her ex-husband to the OP’s boyfriend. It’s not fair to him to be compared to an abusive narcissist simply because he doesn’t believe in God (which I don’t even think is fully true about him, since he goes to Mass and prays the Rosary, so at least there is some belief in him).

 

[Zelie_Louis]

Everyone - please remember your charity.

 

[flyingfish]

Liberanosamalo: if I have been uncharitable or in any way offended you or hurt your feelings, I’m sorry.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I didn’t read it as uncharitable. Actually, we sometimes disagree between ourselves on approaches and I’m afraid I sometimes give the appearance of biting your head off. I don’t mean to. We seem to approach the world from different sides.



I know NPDs are a very small minority of the population. Thank heavens. I know my experience is rare in the grand scheme of things. Contrary to the appearance I give, I don’t see EVERYTHING through that filter. I just know that recognizing some behavior patterns and avoiding that kind of person, or treating them with caution, can help avert getting entwined with certain personality types.

Not everyone who isn’t religious is a bad person. But many bad people I know had no place for religion in their life.

What you see when you’re dating… you’ll get more of it when you marry that person. I just know I could have averted much trouble and pain in my own life and the lives of others if I had taken a more jaundiced view to the kind of person who preferred to sit on the throne of God himself and decide what was right and wrong and true and false. Instead of giving him credit for some “spiritual journey” and being a “work in progress.” It was all part of a facade.

As soon as I married, the facade fell apart. I’ve seen the same thing with people who ignore sexual issues when dating. Then they marry and wonder why their spouse is porn addicted or won’t follow NFP rules or have affairs.

Do people change? Not without a lot of God’s grace. Which they have to be open to. And they have to be willing to die to themselves.

 

[Who_am_I]

Can anyone recommend some reading material for either myself or my boyfriend? Nothing to like scare him away or anything Just some interesting light reading to spark his interest in the faith. He went to CCD as a kid and…well, he didn’t learn anything at all! He doesn’t even know what Fatima is or who any of the saints were!

A little more light on the subject if you happen to be interested:

his parents go to mass (except when they don’t feel like it)

His mother does not believe in confession.

His mother is pro-abortion.

His mother is…in a word: psycho. (I am not exaggerating)

His parents have a rocky rocky relationship, and I suspect that it is only his father’s faith that is keeping them together.

sometimes I feel like my boyfriend won’t open his heart to the faith because of his mother’s example. I am not one to judge anyone (that is God’s job I know). But I don’t appreciate this terrible portrayal of Catholicism from his irrational mother!

She believes in killing babies and yet tells him to his face that he is “going to hell” because he doesn’t go to church with her. (he’d rather go with me…I don’t blame him

He went to mass until he was confirmed and then his parents gave him the option not to attend. (so of course he would rather not go)

His father is a nice man and I think he has a prayerful life.

if there is any more advice you have to offer on this subject I would greatly appreciate it! Please be aware that I am taking all of this into reflection, and I will not rush into marriage until God has shown me my path.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Whether you are meant to marry him or whether you are just the agent of grace in his life to draw him to God, keep it in prayer.

It’s a good sign that his father has faith. That has a huge effect on kids. Sometimes it seems to outweigh the efforts of a mother. (Which can be bad if the dad isn’t the guy with the faith.)

I’d recomment THIS IS THE FAITH by Canon Ripley. (Tan Books)

It’s thick. But it takes faith from the ground up in a very systematic way. Conversational tone, chapters no longer than 7-10 pages. If he reads through that one chapter a week he’ll know more than most Catholics at the end. You can’t make a good decision to accept or reject something unless you know what it is your’e accepting.
His mother reminds me of that old saying “People don’t reject the Catholic Church. They reject their idea of what the Catholic Church is.”

Good luck. You’re a good friend to him.

 

[Serap]

What personal attacks I am not justifying what her husband did, I read her posts about him and I think he’s a worthless SOB.

I just don’t agree with her point of view on this particular subject, and I think she’s wrong to compare her ex-husband to the OP’s boyfriend. It’s not fair to him to be compared to an abusive narcissist simply because he doesn’t believe in God (which I don’t even think is fully true about him, since he goes to Mass and prays the Rosary, so at least there is some belief in him).

RPP came out of left field here I have no idea what he’s talking about either. I thought you were very nice in your posts…you just disagreed is all

Anyway, I am married to a Catholic in name only. He supports me going to church and supports me teaching my daughter faith, but he is just not into it himself and he thinks a lot of the bible is superstition and made up. I tell him I disagree and he tells me that I’m gullable for believing everything in the bible. He doesn’t go to church or pray either. He says that religion is for uneducated people who need to make sense of the world. My rebuttal to him is that our priests are some of the smartest and most educated people and he says, well then they must be filling some kind of void. I tell him I disagree and I know on some level he agrees with me, but he’s afraid to take that leap at the moment.

We have baptized our daughter and she will be attending Catholic school and my husband supports that 100%. A priest once told me that he does have faith, but it’s in his own way and that I should pray for him.

I may also add that he’s a wonderful father, loving husband; he’s kind, considerate, thoughtful; I could go on. He is very much living the Christian values without being a total believer in Christ. I never have every regretted marrying him and I know through prayer, that God has chosen my husband for me. My DH was handpicked by God and now it’s up to me to take up this cross and help my husband come back to the church on his own time.

It’s not all about marrying a Catholic per se, it’s about praying and discerning if it is God’s will for us to be paired with this certain individual.

Liberasamo (I can’t spell your name ), you went through a terrible ordeal and in the perfect world, I 100% agree with you to marry a devout Catholic, but sometimes God partners us with someone for a reason and it’s up to God in the end.