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CMatt25
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Oh my PRMerger. After a discussion with this guy Phelps you seem so enamored with, when he throws it into my face, that is when I might then agree to disagree. Which is what I propose we do.
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PRmerger
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ThatKrazyPagan
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Um… maybe I misunderstood in my theology class, but aren’t you behind a 16th century church teaching if you believe that a person’s conscience is not put there by God to lead people to him, regardless of religion?
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George_Pierson
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PRmerger
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I don’t believe this is what the poster was professing, TKP. Of course we believe conscience was put there by God to lead people to him. However, we must disagree about the “regardless of religion” part.
The Catholic Church has never taught that our religion doesn’t matter. In fact, that is a heresy called “indifferentism.”
It is addressed in an encyclical, Mirari Vos, by Pope Gregory XVI:
Indifferentism–This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.
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SteveVH
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I follow my conscience each and every day, but that conscience is informed by the revelation of Jesus Christ which I received from the Apostles through His Church. My conscience, on its own, cannot inform me of revealed truth. That is why it has been revealed. And yes, I agree that God speaks through our conscience and draws us toward truth and convicts us when we tend toward evil. But it cannot give us the truth revealed by God about himself. It can only nudge us in that direction. An uninformed conscience becomes dull and ultimately useless.
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TedDC
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No, I believe he would be wrong.
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TedDC
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My Catholic education helped develop my beliefs, and I spend a good deal of time thinking and meditating on questions of faith and morals in an attempt to learn what God wants me to do. In fact I’ve become much more serious about that since leaving the Catholic Church; perhaps realizing that the Church doesn’t have all the answers led me to appreciate my own responsibility for seeking them.
The question is not relevant to this discussion.
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George_Pierson
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The Church that Jesus said that he was going to build does not have all of the answers?
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TedDC
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I don’t believe that the Bible, upon which the Catholic Church bases that claim, is necessarily an inerrant record of God’s communication with man. It has not been proven to be such.The Church that Jesus said that he was going to build does not have all of the answers?
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George_Pierson
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So, what religion, if any, are you?
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StrawberryJam
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Your post does not allow for much thought about this. We can recognize that there are people as you describe.
We also know what the Catholic Church teaches about non catholic christians, Jews, Muslims and other believers and non believers.
Is the point here that these people are not in agreement with catholic teachings, and are flawed? Without a doubt, that catholic answer is clear. What is the point of asking what anyone’s thoughts are on it then? Is the Catholic Church run by popular opinion? So, if we know it is not, then is this thread simply a venue to mock non catholics?
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CMatt25
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Hi Jam, I don’t find Serap to be mocking non Catholics at all. Actually quite the opposite in my reading of her posts. And trust me in my own discourses with her, she has been nothing if not kind. Peace.
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guanophore
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Although I agree with your point, and what you have to say, I have to point out that it is possible to participate in the Sacramental life and still fail. For example, there is one person on this thread who is fond of using the phrase “we walk by faith and not by sight”. However, unlike embracing in humility all the TEachings of the Church, he picks and chooses those that appeal to him, and uses this phrase to reject the rest. He maintains that it is not possible for us to know what God expects of us.
A person in such a frame of mind could participate in the sacramental llife of the Church yet remain in a state of dis-grace as a result of fundamental disobedience. No amount of prayers will save such a person, who will not confess many of their personal practices because they are not believed to BE sins.
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PRmerger
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Fair enough, Ted. This is good. Yet not quite consistent with your paradigm.
Are you saying that if someone’s (say, Fred Phelps’) conscience tells him something about God that disagrees with your version of God, then your version of God is the correct one?
Thus, there is an absolute truth about our understanding of God?
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PRmerger
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And in the end, after your meditation, you decide based on your feelings?
I just don’t understand what your canon is, that is, your “measuring stick”, your criterion, is for discerning what is Truth.
[quoteIn fact I’ve become much more serious about that since leaving the Catholic Church; perhaps realizing that the Church doesn’t have all the answers led me to appreciate my own responsibility for seeking them.
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And where are the answers found, Ted? In the end, it would appear, from your feelings, no?
Fair enough. But your comment does lead to doubt regarding your understanding of Catholicism…
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TedDC
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If you mean a named, organized religion - then the answer is “none”.
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CMatt25
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PR, no. As I would guess it if it was just feelings, Ted could do that without spending a “good deal of time thinking and meditating on questions of faith and morals” in an attempt to learn what God wants him to do.
It goes far deeper than just feelings PR. From CCC 1776, “His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”
You can do “feelings” a whole lot quicker than the time Ted spends on faith and morals.
I feel like having ice cream today PR. And it didn’t take me much more time than a nanosecond to decide that!
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PRmerger
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So, what is the canon that is used to determine what is true and what is not, after praying and meditating?PR, no. As I would guess it if it was just feelings, Ted could do that without spending a “good deal of time thinking and meditating on questions of faith and morals” in an attempt to learn what God wants him to do.
It goes far deeper than just feelings PR. From CCC 1776, “His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”
You can do “feelings” a whole lot quicker than the time Ted spends on faith and morals.
I feel like having ice cream today PR. And it didn’t take me much more time than a nanosecond to decide that!
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CMatt25
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CCC 1782 has this to say about it. "Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”
And long before that was written, the Apostle Paul had this to say. Rom 14:13, “Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.” 19, “Let us then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another.”
PR, let us not place a block in the way of one pursuing God. Peace.
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