Can Protestants even judge heresy?

[Blacksword]

This really comes down to the fact that, in the end, “heresy” means, for Protestants, a belief which I disagree with you about. The old saw is true in the end, it’s trading away 1 Pope for a thousand. Everyone gets to be his own Pope. One of many reasons I swam the Tiber!

 

[SecretGarden]

Being a former protestant, I can testify without a doubt that despite the Protestant denominations seemly appear to be broken, when you take a deep look at the various denominations, they are also very connected to their denomination and dedicated to Christ’s teaching which means that when approached with many topics: they can and do testify and defend the gospel. In many cases, they know their material a lot greater than most cradle Catholics I know. For example as most Catholics will also agree: if someone said that Jesus was hung from a tree verses a cross, that Joseph was in fact Jesus’s biological father and the reason why people at the time made up Jesus’s divinity was because they were covering up that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations outside marriage and Jesus was a product of it. Both sides would have a field day with these words because it is completely heresy among other things. The truth is: Jesus died on a cross. Mary and Joseph remained faithful to each other and Jesus was divine. He biological father was God and Joseph was his adoptive father. Protestants are also Christians therefore all of us share the same core beliefs as well as heavenly father.

I think Catholics need to be less judging on them because there is alot they don’t understand about the Protestant church. The Protestant Church has many branches which are unique and special. They are your brothers and sisters in Christ and we can learn a lot from them such as community, and ways to educate and keep our young people inside our churches. They can also learn a great deal from us as well.

 

[JonNC]

This really comes down to the fact that, in the end, “heresy” means, for Protestants, a belief which I disagree with you about. The old saw is true in the end, it’s trading away 1 Pope for a thousand. Everyone gets to be his own Pope. One of many reasons I swam the Tiber!

First, I sincerely pray you have been blessed richly in word and sacrament since crossing of the Tiber. Not knowing which protestant communion you came out of, this may have been your experience. As a Lutheran, it is not mine, at least not in terms of doctrine. I am no more a pope than you are. In addition, it is not up to me to decide what Lutherans consider heresy. I look to the confessional documents of Lutheranism, along with the creeds and early councils of the Church.

Jon

 

[AmateurPianist]

This really comes down to the fact that, in the end, “heresy” means, for Protestants, a belief which I disagree with you about. The old saw is true in the end, it’s trading away 1 Pope for a thousand. Everyone gets to be his own Pope. One of many reasons I swam the Tiber!

Really.

And you know this to be true how?

 

[CopticChristian]

To my knowledge most Baptists would not label the AOG a heretical group and vice versa. You are right, there is no central authority for Baptists but there are large groupings that mostly believe the same thing.

If there was similar belief among Baptists then there would be no need for the varied and sundried divisions. I believe that for you to believe that is trying to believe something you would like to be true but is not true.

 

[CopticChristian]

This really comes down to the fact that, in the end, “heresy” means, for Protestants, a belief which I disagree with you about. The old saw is true in the end, it’s trading away 1 Pope for a thousand. Everyone gets to be his own Pope. One of many reasons I swam the Tiber!

I am grateful that I invested in swimming lessons for my daughter, Baptized, Confirmed, Reconciled and receiving the Eucharist.

 

[CopticChristian]

Being a former protestant, I can testify without a doubt that despite the Protestant denominations seemly appear to be broken, when you take a deep look at the various denominations, they are also very connected to their denomination and dedicated to Christ’s teaching which means that when approached with many topics: they can and do testify and defend the gospel. In many cases, they know their material a lot greater than most cradle Catholics I know. For example as most Catholics will also agree: if someone said that Jesus was hung from a tree verses a cross, that Joseph was in fact Jesus’s biological father and the reason why people at the time made up Jesus’s divinity was because they were covering up that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations outside marriage and Jesus was a product of it. Both sides would have a field day with these words because it is completely heresy among other things. The truth is: Jesus died on a cross. Mary and Joseph remained faithful to each other and Jesus was divine. He biological father was God and Joseph was his adoptive father. Protestants are also Christians therefore all of us share the same core beliefs as well as heavenly father.

I think Catholics need to be less judging on them because there is alot they don’t understand about the Protestant church. The Protestant Church has many branches which are unique and special. They are your brothers and sisters in Christ and we can learn a lot from them such as community, and ways to educate and keep our young people inside our churches. They can also learn a great deal from us as well.

Nominalism. The Protestant Church. When did you last stumble on the Protestant Church? What does the Protestant Church look like? Does the Protestant Church have a leader? Does the Protestant Church always worship the same? Does the Protestant Church have the same Doctrine and Confessions for all Protestants? Where is this Protestant Church that I may find it?

 

[CopticChristian]

First, I sincerely pray you have been blessed richly in word and sacrament since crossing of the Tiber. Not knowing which protestant communion you came out of, this may have been your experience. As a Lutheran, it is not mine, at least not in terms of doctrine. I am no more a pope than you are. In addition, it is not up to me to decide what Lutherans consider heresy. I look to the confessional documents of Lutheranism, along with the creeds and early councils of the Church.

Jon

I believe that my ignorance of Lutheranism overwhelms me and you have aided my excavation out of that dark whole. I have heard, read, understand that for Anglicans there is no such thing as binding by any statement made by the Anglican body. They are sort of suggestions.

Lutherans I know are split and rather than delineate I will ask. How many divisions are there in the world, USA? Is each body bound as you say to a paricular confession and then divides on you will tell me.

Thank you

 

[JonNC]

I believe that my ignorance of Lutheranism overwhelms me and you have aided my excavation out of that dark whole. I have heard, read, understand that for Anglicans there is no such thing as binding by any statement made by the Anglican body. They are sort of suggestions.

Lutherans I know are split and rather than delineate I will ask. How many divisions are there in the world, USA? Is each body bound as you say to a paricular confession and then divides on you will tell me.

Thank you

Depends on what one means by division. Lutheranism has always been much less hierarchical than Catholicism. and our polity reflects that, sometimes to disappointing results.
There are, sadly now, divisions amongst us caused be the influence of liberalism within some synods, which has led some to, how shall I say, move away from scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, by ordaining women, and some policies regarding same gender relationships. There are more minor divisions, based on things like fellowship.
On the whole, however, Lutheranism’s symbols are in the Book of Concord. And in most cases (there are some exceptions) a Lutheran can commune in Lutheran parishes of other synods.

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is a dead end, because if you go far enough back you can ask this of Catholics as well: what makes them believe that the Catholic Church has the authority they claim for it? (Never mind that Catholics do have to engage in a lot more fallible interpretation than many conservative apologists admit.)

Catholic apologists typically appeal to history. But of course, one can interpret historical evidence wrong just as one can interpret Scripture wrong. Indeed, absent theological belief about inspiration, Scripture is just another body of historical evidence.

The confessional Protestant position is that certain views are objectively contrary to Scripture, and that it is the task and duty of the institutional Church to discipline those who hold such views.

I think there are huge problems with that position. But you can’t dismiss it simply by the general question “what makes you think you have the correct interpretation”? They have specific reasons for believing this in each case, just as Catholics do!

Edwin

You guys continuously deny that Jesus does not uphold His promise that the HS would guide His Church into all Truth. that is a blasphemy against our Lord? stop the disbelief on Him. God can do all things.

 

[JonNC]

You guys continuously deny that Jesus does not uphold His promise that the HS would guide His Church into all Truth. that is a blasphemy against our Lord? stop the disbelief on Him. God can do all things.

No one is blaspheming here. No one is disbelieving. We all agree that the HS will guide His Church into all truth, and that God can do all things. I just hold suspect your contention that the Church consists only of those those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Certainly that is the central part of the Church, but not the only.

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

No one is blaspheming here. No one is disbelieving. We all agree that the HS will guide His Church into all truth, and that God can do all things. I just hold suspect your contention that the Church consists only of those those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Certainly that is the central part of the Church, but not the only.

Jon

by saying that, you are saying that the HS is not teaching all teh Truth. There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God. Is that simple. No falsehood comes from God. He deceives no one. the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth. if you did, you would come and embrace it. you judge the Church based in your false belief. it cannot be done this way. you cannot judge the Truth through false teachings.

 

[joe370]

No one is blaspheming here. No one is disbelieving. We all agree that the HS will guide His Church into all truth, and that God can do all things. I just hold suspect your contention that the Church consists only of those those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Certainly that is the central part of the Church, but not the only.

Jon

It seems reasonable to believe that Jesus continues to guide His one Catholic Church into all truth in spite of the fracture within His Mystical Body.

Since the reformation, which fractured Jesus’ Mystical Body, in ways the east - west schism never did, Jesus’ Mystical Body has consisted of those perfectly united with the Bishop of Rome as well as those Christians belonging to non-Catholic Churches, imperfectly united with the Bishop of Rome.

CCC:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of** both sides were to blame**."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

**
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers** . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 “Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.”

 

[wisdomseeker]

**820 “Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.” **

This means only the CC the unity still exists. it is in her the unity is possible.

 

[rainman10]

Interesting question. Protestants can’t judge what is heretical and what is not, they are in no position to do so. They don’t realize, like you have stated, that they have no standard of comparison. Ultimately, its however one interprets the bible. One interprets it this way, another that way etc. For them, its whatever the bible says. But for one it says this, and for another it says that.

Or whatever their pastor says. This pastor says this, but that pastor says that, and so on.

 

[Newsy]

No one is blaspheming here. No one is disbelieving. We all agree that the HS will guide His Church into all truth, and that God can do all things. I just hold suspect your contention that the Church consists only of those those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Certainly that is the central part of the Church, but not the only.

Jon

Technically, the Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, but we still believe them to be part of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Technically, the Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, but we still believe them to be part of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church.

Yes, because they still hold the same Tradition as we do.

 

[Newsy]

by saying that, you are saying that the HS is not teaching all teh Truth. There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God. Is that simple. No falsehood comes from God. He deceives no one. the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth. if you did, you would come and embrace it. you judge the Church based in your false belief. it cannot be done this way. you cannot judge the Truth through false teachings.

To say that because they are outside the Catholic Church, so they cannot know the truth is wrong. We believe that our separated brethren have part of the truth. Some protestant churches have most of the truth, but as Catholics, we believe we have the fullness of truth. Joining the Catholic Church doesn’t make all questions disappear, neither does being a Lutheran mean someone is outside the realm of truth, altogether.

Please understand, I came to the Church because that’s where I found the truth, but we don’t hold a monopoly on it. We have many things in common with our separated brothers and sisters. An attitude of “we have it and you don’t, nah nah” doesn’t help to heal the fractured Body of Christ. Let’s not lose sight of our mission.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[wisdomseeker]

To say that because they are outside the Catholic Church, so they cannot know the truth is wrong. We believe that our separated brethren have part of the truth. Some protestant churches have most of the truth, but as Catholics, we believe we have the fullness of truth. Joining the Catholic Church doesn’t make all questions disappear, neither does being a Lutheran mean someone is outside the realm of truth, altogether.

Please understand, I came to the Church because that’s where I found the truth, but we don’t hold a monopoly on it. We have many things in common with our separated brothers and sisters. An attitude of “we have it and you don’t, nah nah” doesn’t help to heal the fractured Body of Christ. Let’s not lose sight of our mission.

Happy Thanksgiving!

The Body of Christ is not fractured. the Body of Christ cannot be broken, that is nonsense. there is only one Body and that is the CC.

one man leaving the Church has no power against God to say they broke the Body of Christ. the Truth is not spreaded among discensions. God reveal Himself to only one Church and not many. God does not give half Truths and half lies. God loves those who stand by in defense of Him. if you are a witness in teh court of law, and tell one lie, the whole testimony is discredit and thrown out.

we cannot stand by those who spread falsehoods about God. it leads others into falsehood and that is not pleasing to God. God reveals Truth to one Body one Church, therefore belief God and what He says and does. they have led millions of Catholics away from teh Truth, do you think that God is pleased with this?

 

[CopticChristian]

by saying that, you are saying that the HS is not teaching all teh Truth. There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God. Is that simple. No falsehood comes from God. He deceives no one. the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth. if you did, you would come and embrace it. you judge the Church based in your false belief. it cannot be done this way. you cannot judge the Truth through false teachings.

I agree with everything you say with some moderation. What someone believes, to them is not false. What someone believes what you deem to be true is determined to be false may be true or false. We agree that when something is true it cannot change. It is always true or it is not true. When someone looks at what they believe they have methods of determing their truth. There is only one truth I agree. John Henry Neuman, Paul the Apostle, and many others believed they had truth until they either were convinced through study or by revelation that it was not. You and I cannot change another’s mind. Study, revelation and understanding and time can.