Can Protestants even judge heresy?

[wisdomseeker]

I agree with everything you say with some moderation. What someone believes, to them is not false. What someone believes what you deem to be true is determined to be false may be true or false. We agree that when something is true it cannot change. It is always true or it is not true. When someone looks at what they believe they have methods of determing their truth. There is only one truth I agree. John Henry Neuman, Paul the Apostle, and many others believed they had truth until they either were convinced through study or by revelation that it was not. You and I cannot change another’s mind. Study, revelation and understanding and time can.

the Love for the Truth should be greater than the love for myself. God did not leave us to ourselves, He revealed the Truth to the Church. We know how hard it is for a man to submit themselves, to humble themselves to give up their inner power and to submit to that one Truth revealed. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all things will be added to it.

 

[Newsy]

The Body of Christ is not fractured. the Body of Christ cannot be broken, that is nonsense. there is only one Body and that is the CC.

one man leaving the Church has no power against God to say they broke the Body of Christ. the Truth is not spreaded among discensions. God reveal Himself to only one Church and not many. God does not give half Truths and half lies. God loves those who stand by in defense of Him. if you are a witness in teh court of law, and tell one lie, the whole testimony is discredit and thrown out.

we cannot stand by those who spread falsehoods about God. it leads others into falsehood and that is not pleasing to God. God reveals Truth to one Body one Church, therefore belief God and what He says and does. they have led millions of Catholics away from teh Truth, do you think that God is pleased with this?

Are you suggesting that only Catholics can go to heaven?

Is this an all or nothing deal? Is there any chance of salvation for someone outside of the Catholic Church?

Once you have been confronted with the truth, you are responsible for the decision you make. But, not all people start there. Some are brought up in other churches, some of these churches follow Christ, but reject part of our doctrines. They will be called to account for what they have been given. If they believe in a triune God, then that is part of our faith. If they believe in Christ and His redeeming work on the cross, then that is part of the truth. Some churches accept the Nicene creed and recite the Lord’s Prayer, some also accept the early Church Councils, these are part of our Faith. To say that they have no part of our Faith is incorrect, they just don’t have all of it. IF, they are exposed to our Catholic Faith and choose to reject it, then they will be accountable for that action. If they are never presented with the Catholic Church, then they will never see what they are missing. I agree that anyone who knowingly rejects part of the truth is living a lie, but to verbally assault them about their faith is not going to fix it.

To tell them that our Church is the only one, the first one and they must accept it b/c you said so, without any evidence provided to them, is not helping. We are called to speak the truth in love and to make disciples for Christ, your approach is what I take issue with. I was raised protestant, I have been confronted with the attitude, “We’re the first and only, you are wrong”. Guess what, that didn’t send me running to the Church. I was led by God, with the help of a few patient Catholic friends, to see the Fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church. Patience and kindness will open more ears to your points, than condescending remarks. You gave JonNC no points of evidence, you stated your opinion. I agree with your opinion, but it came across as lacking any proof.

 

[CopticChristian]

the Love for the Truth should be greater than the love for myself. God did not leave us to ourselves, He revealed the Truth to the Church. We know how hard it is for a man to submit themselves, to humble themselves to give up their inner power and to submit to that one Truth revealed. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all things will be added to it.

Amen…I did find one group that declares Protestants, Dispensationalists, Catholics, Calvinists, Health and Wealth, Lordship Salvation, Presbyterians, Benny Hinn, Charismatic, speaking in tongue, faith healing, Promise Keepers, and more to be heretics and wrong…thought you might find it interesting…All bibles are heretical except the 1611 King James…

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/false_doctrines.htm

 

[Little_Mary]

Amen…I did find one group that declares Protestants, Dispensationalists, Catholics, Calvinists, Health and Wealth, Lordship Salvation, Presbyterians, Benny Hinn, Charismatic, speaking in tongue, faith healing, Promise Keepers, and more to be heretics and wrong…thought you might find it interesting…All bibles are heretical except the 1611 King James…

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/false_doctrines.htm

Wow, they don’t like anybody do they?!!

:whacky:

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you suggesting that only Catholics can go to heaven?

Is this an all or nothing deal? Is there any chance of salvation for someone outside of the Catholic Church?

Once you have been confronted with the truth, you are responsible for the decision you make. But, not all people start there. Some are brought up in other churches, some of these churches follow Christ, but reject part of our doctrines. They will be called to account for what they have been given. If they believe in a triune God, then that is part of our faith. If they believe in Christ and His redeeming work on the cross, then that is part of the truth. Some churches accept the Nicene creed and recite the Lord’s Prayer, some also accept the early Church Councils, these are part of our Faith. To say that they have no part of our Faith is incorrect, they just don’t have all of it. IF, they are exposed to our Catholic Faith and choose to reject it, then they will be accountable for that action. If they are never presented with the Catholic Church, then they will never see what they are missing. I agree that anyone who knowingly rejects part of the truth is living a lie, but to verbally assault them about their faith is not going to fix it.

To tell them that our Church is the only one, the first one and they must accept it b/c you said so, without any evidence provided to them, is not helping. We are called to speak the truth in love and to make disciples for Christ, your approach is what I take issue with. I was raised protestant, I have been confronted with the attitude, “We’re the first and only, you are wrong”. Guess what, that didn’t send me running to the Church. I was led by God, with the help of a few patient Catholic friends, to see the Fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church. Patience and kindness will open more ears to your points, than condescending remarks. You gave JonNC no points of evidence, you stated your opinion. I agree with your opinion, but it came across as lacking any proof.

Who is talking about who is going to Heaven or not? why do you bring something in the discussion when is not the issue?
I did not say so anything. Jesus said. “As My Father sent me so I sent you, go into the whole world and teach all man I have commanded you.”

Jesus did not send protestants to teach anyone. God cannot contradict HImself, if He did than there is no point in believing Him. Man lies God does not.

protestantism is heresy. it is found in man and not God. the problem today is that many are infected with relativism that they became unable to discern the Truth. many are attempting to elevate man above God. Many wants to bring the Holy Mother Church to the level of all other religions. that is an abomination to our Lord.

**
“He cannot have God for his Father who does not have the church for his Mother.”-Augustine**

 

[wisdomseeker]

Amen…I did find one group that declares Protestants, Dispensationalists, Catholics, Calvinists, Health and Wealth, Lordship Salvation, Presbyterians, Benny Hinn, Charismatic, speaking in tongue, faith healing, Promise Keepers, and more to be heretics and wrong…thought you might find it interesting…All bibles are heretical except the 1611 King James…

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/false_doctrines.htm

That is what I am talking about. these are fruits of protestantism. just think of how many are being deceived and unable to seek the Truth. all these voices agaisnt the One True Church. I dont knwo how God is going to deal with this, it is not for me to know.

the Mission of the Church and us Catholics is to continuously to fight for Holy Mother Church agaisnt all evill who are stealing the souls of men from God.

 

[bz5]

I guess I wasn’t aware that any protestant churches did this anyway…can you give an example?

Sure - my Calvinist friends call Arminianism a heresy. And obviously, there are many Protestants who consider Catholics (and others) to be cults

 

[JustaServant]

That is what I am talking about. these are fruits of protestantism. just think of how many are being deceived and unable to seek the Truth. all these voices agaisnt the One True Church. I dont knwo how God is going to deal with this, it is not for me to know.

the Mission of the Church and us Catholics is to continuously to fight for Holy Mother Church agaisnt all evill who are stealing the souls of men from God.

Years ago, when I was an evangelical I heard a Catholic teacher on television make the statement that Protestantism, by it’s very nature, leads to theological liberalism. At the time I thought the statement offensive, but now on this side of the Tiber I can see his point.
Protestantism, does indeed lead logically to theologial liberalism and relativity.
I base this conclusion on the shaky concept of ‘scripture alone’. Without anything to anchor to, they drift.
This can be seen very clearly by just observing the path various denominations have taken from thier roots. Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran. The mainline roots of those denominations have all gone liberal. There are sub-groups that have hung on to thier roots, which must be commended. But those sub-groups become smaller and smaller as the decades roll on.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Years ago, when I was an evangelical I heard a Catholic teacher on television make the statement that Protestantism, by it’s very nature, leads to theological liberalism. At the time I thought the statement offensive, but now on this side of the Tiber I can see his point.
Protestantism, does indeed lead logically to theologial liberalism and relativity.
I base this conclusion on the shaky concept of ‘scripture alone’. Without anything to anchor to, they drift.
This can be seen very clearly by just observing the path various denominations have taken from thier roots. Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran. The mainline roots of those denominations have all gone liberal. There are sub-groups that have hung on to thier roots, which must be commended. But those sub-groups become smaller and smaller as the decades roll on.

Indeed. when you take out the Church as an authority and claim the Bible as the authority, one is left with what they think the Bible should say.

Take this website for example, what these people are saying. Read what he is saying. no where he recognizes that Jesus found a Church. he puts himself above Christ by denying the authority of Christ’s Church. Instead on his own accord he uses the Word of God to judge and condemn others who does the same as him, they use the Bible as their authority.

“Earnestly contend for the faith” (Jude 3). One is a poor Christian who is not insulted when Christ’s deity is questioned or when the infallible authority of the Bible is questioned. Contend earnestly, we are commanded. Defend the Bible and Christ."

 

[CopticChristian]

Sure - my Calvinist friends call Arminianism a heresy. And obviously, there are many Protestants who consider Catholics (and others) to be cults

The reason for this can be seen in my post #22…Thoughts transmit time…

 

[CopticChristian]

Years ago, when I was an evangelical I heard a Catholic teacher on television make the statement that Protestantism, by it’s very nature, leads to theological liberalism. At the time I thought the statement offensive, but now on this side of the Tiber I can see his point.
Protestantism, does indeed lead logically to theologial liberalism and relativity.
I base this conclusion on the shaky concept of ‘scripture alone’. Without anything to anchor to, they drift.
This can be seen very clearly by just observing the path various denominations have taken from thier roots. Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran. The mainline roots of those denominations have all gone liberal. There are sub-groups that have hung on to thier roots, which must be commended. But those sub-groups become smaller and smaller as the decades roll on.

You may want to point this out to Roy who periodically posts his liberal thoughts. Roy may be interested in from whence those thoughts come from.

 

[Contarini]

You guys continuously deny that Jesus does not uphold His promise that the HS would guide His Church into all Truth. that is a blasphemy against our Lord?

Who are “we guys,” and what do you think you know about what I believe?

If you’re describing Protestantism as a whole, your claim is outrageously wrong. Protestants interpret the claim differently.

I know that fundamentalist Protestants frequently interpret disagreement with their interpretation as disagreement with Scripture itself. This is one of their worst habits, why imitate it?

stop the disbelief on Him. God can do all things.

Indeed. God could have inspired Martin Luther to see the things that were really wrong with sixteenth-century Catholicism instead of letting him charge of on his own weird theological fox-hunt. But as far as I can see, God chose not to do this. Am I thereby guilty of disbelief in God?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I disagree. I believe and you deny that the Magesterium speaks for all Christendom.

Can you point me to the post in which I have denied this?

I have some difficulties with it–obviously it’s far from a simple issue, as shown by the endless disagreements among Catholics about just what counts as the Magisterium and just what level of the Magisterium has what level of authority. But I would certainly not flatly deny this proposition.

I agree Episcopalians cannot speak for Catholics. I understand the Episcopalians are the Anglican Church in America. I am not sure. Is there anything binding on Episcopalians by the authority of Episcopalians or is it just suggestions?

It’s not just “suggestions” (well, perhaps some members of your Communion would say so, since they seem to think anything below a certain level of authority is just a suggestion, and arguably all our teachings are at that fairly low level). The Episcopal Church has binding disciplinary authority and certainly issues teachings that are at least at the level of pastoral teachings issuing from your USCCB.

But certainly we do not claim that the Episcopal Church, or even the Anglican Communion, speaks for the Catholic Church as a whole.

What is binding on us, most fundamentally, is the Nicene Creed, which obviously was not created by Episcopalians.

You don’t believe that the Magesterium has the right to a claim

Stop telling me what I believe or don’t believe.

Logic sometimes is superseded by Tradition/Scripture and Faith. I believe in One God…and The Holy Catholic Church…I say this every Mass and believe it to be true…Faith is sometimes not logical or do you believe that all elements of Faith have to pass the test of logic?

Faith transcends reason but never contradicts it. I have frequently been told that this is Catholic teaching.

Edwin

 

[wisdomseeker]

Who are “we guys,” and what do you think you know about what I believe?

If you’re describing Protestantism as a whole, your claim is outrageously wrong. Protestants interpret the claim differently.

I know that fundamentalist Protestants frequently interpret disagreement with their interpretation as disagreement with Scripture itself. This is one of their worst habits, why imitate it?

Indeed. God could have inspired Martin Luther to see the things that were really wrong with sixteenth-century Catholicism instead of letting him charge of on his own weird theological fox-hunt. But as far as I can see, God chose not to do this. Am I thereby guilty of disbelief in God?

Edwin

God does not call anyone to be rebellious against His Church. Free will, remember?
are you saying that God led men into perdition?

All protestants denies the CC is the Church Jesus found or they come up with some weird stories like the Church went apostate or somehow the Church got lost in space and so forth…

But you also belong to a belief system taht also rebelled against the CC. it is your fault for still holding on to this system. The CC still here evangelizing all men who are outside the Christ Church. whose fault do you think it is today?

 

[Newsy]

by saying that, you are saying that the HS is not teaching all teh Truth. There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God. Is that simple. No falsehood comes from God. He deceives no one. the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth. if you did, you would come and embrace it. you judge the Church based in your false belief. it cannot be done this way. you cannot judge the Truth through false teachings.

You tell everyone that any teaching contrary to the teaching of the Church cannot come from God. I agree with that.

So then you said,“the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth”. Then, "
The Body of Christ is not fractured. the Body of Christ cannot be broken, that is nonsense. there is only one Body and that is the CC.". And then, “the Truth is not spreaded among discensions.”.
So, are you saying that no Church has any part of the truth, outside of the Catholic Church? I pointed out that many of our separated brethren hold on to part of what we teach, therefore they still have part of the truth. So, I followed it by going one step farther. I said "Are you suggesting that only Catholics can go to heaven?

Is this an all or nothing deal? Is there any chance of salvation for someone outside of the Catholic Church?". Now you refuse to answer my questions by saying that it is an unrelated subject. I am just pointing out that your statements are extreme and lack factual basis. You say that protestants don’t know the truth, if they don’t know the truth can they go to Heaven?

 

[joe370]

Newsy, you asked Wisdomseeker:

Is there any chance of salvation for someone outside of the Catholic Church?

Unequivocally, without any doubt in my mind, the answer is a resounding YES!!!

This is the teaching f the CCC as well!

 

[joe370]

God does not call anyone to be rebellious against His Church. Free will, remember?
are you saying that God led men into perdition?

I agree WS. Only people lead other people into perdition which is why it is so important, in my humble opinion, to trust Jesus’ church leadership, forever guided by Jesus. When we put our trust in the Catholic Church, ultimately, we are putting our trust in Jesus Christ.

To put our trust in scripture alone is to ultimately put our trust in our own unique interpretation of scripture, and that concept is not scriptural at all, and certainly not from God, as can be attested by the many many churches founded by mere man, over the last few centuries, all which have, and continue, to base their teachings on their unique take on scripture, and sadly, this trend will probably never end.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You tell everyone that any teaching contrary to the teaching of the Church cannot come from God. I agree with that.

So then you said,“the reason you are outside the Church is because you came to believe that the Church is not True. therefore you dont know the Truth”. Then, "
The Body of Christ is not fractured. the Body of Christ cannot be broken, that is nonsense. there is only one Body and that is the CC.". And then, “the Truth is not spreaded among discensions.”.
So, are you saying that no Church has any part of the truth, outside of the Catholic Church? I pointed out that many of our separated brethren hold on to part of what we teach, therefore they still have part of the truth. So, I followed it by going one step farther. I said "Are you suggesting that only Catholics can go to heaven?

Is this an all or nothing deal? Is there any chance of salvation for someone outside of the Catholic Church?". Now you refuse to answer my questions by saying that it is an unrelated subject. I am just pointing out that your statements are extreme and lack factual basis. You say that protestants don’t know the truth, if they don’t know the truth can they go to Heaven?

Why do you ask me who is going to be saved?

What truth does protestant have that was not taking from teh CC?

 

[Newsy]

Why do you ask me who is going to be saved?

What truth does protestant have that was not taking from teh CC?

When you say,“there is only one Body and that is the CC.”, it gives the impression that we are the only ones with the truth. You say “if you are a witness in teh court of law, and tell one lie, the whole testimony is discredit and thrown out.”, this continues to further the idea that we have a monopoly on the truth. That if one aspect of their belief is wrong, then they should be thrown out. You are expressing ideas in a way that makes the CC sound elitist. Not everone has been exposed to the fullness of the Catholic Faith, so they cannot be held accountable for not knowing. If we are the only one with the truth, then where are protestants in the greater picture? I believe the CC teaches that we are a family and its our job to lead them into the fullness of truth. I was just curious of how you view non-Catholics. “There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God.”, seems to imply that they are outside the family.

I agree that all truth inside the protestant churches, originates from the truth left to us by Christ. Your former posts made it sound like, unless they had all the truth, they would be doomed. I was simply pointing out that they have part of the truth.

 

[wisdomseeker]

When you say,“there is only one Body and that is the CC.”, it gives the impression that we are the only ones with the truth. You say “if you are a witness in teh court of law, and tell one lie, the whole testimony is discredit and thrown out.”, this continues to further the idea that we have a monopoly on the truth. That if one aspect of their belief is wrong, then they should be thrown out. You are expressing ideas in a way that makes the CC sound elitist. Not everone has been exposed to the fullness of the Catholic Faith, so they cannot be held accountable for not knowing. If we are the only one with the truth, then where are protestants in the greater picture? I believe the CC teaches that we are a family and its our job to lead them into the fullness of truth. I was just curious of how you view non-Catholics. “There is only ONe Truth. any teaching contrary to what the Church teaches is false and therefore cannot come from God.”, seems to imply that they are outside the family.

I agree that all truth inside the protestant churches, originates from the truth left to us by Christ. Your former posts made it sound like, unless they had all the truth, they would be doomed. I was simply pointing out that they have part of the truth.

Again what truth protestants have that was not taking from the CC?