Can protestants only be saved because of ignorance ?

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God alone chooses who will be saved regardless of faith tradition or lack of faith.

Catholics have no excuse because we are supposed to know better, we got a head start and we need to take personal responsibility for nurturing and learning more about our faith.

Great parents will set boundaries and clear rules because they want their children to grow up to be functioning and responsible adults who contribute positively to society.

Some kids respond positively to great parenting and others don’t.

What about those who have little to bad to no parental guidance at all? Who are left to their own devices through no fault of their own. Do they deserve understanding, compassion and mercy? I think so.

If God chooses to save Richard Dawkins, it’s none of our business. Who are we to question? Mind you I don’t know what Dawkins would think of that. 😃
 
MaryMary1975,

One last thought before I leave this thread …

Since you are utterly convinced of your truth, even though it is a false understanding, and nobody whomsoever is able to change your mindset, then maybe you can appreciate how difficult it is for a non-Catholic who has been raised from the cradle with certain teachings to change** their** mindset. Just telling someone their faith is false and they need to listen to your truth or be damned is not going to have any effect whatsoever, no matter how many proofs you provide.

Until the Holy Spirit gives them special light, God will not hold them culpable for following their own faith beliefs, especially when they love and follow Christ to the best of their ability and conscience. I can preach to the housetop and you will not budge, and God will not hold you culpable, either, for not listening to the Church as She understands her own doctrines. Somewhere along the line, others have managed to strongly convince you that you are right, and it is no different for non-C’s. Neither of you are at fault for not seeking further - why would you, when you are already set in your beliefs?

Knowing that there are no coincidences, I heard a TV broadcast yesterday after viewing this thread, that was a timely warning from God. It reminds me how offensive it is to Him when anyone attacks a brother or sister in Christ, using the “sword of the Spirit” as a weapon to denounce others’ faiths and preach damnation, coercing them to embrace Catholicism. Pope Pius XII specifically condemns the practice in Mystici Corporis Article 104:
Therefore, whenever it happens, despite the constant teaching of this Apostolic See that anyone is compelled to embrace the Catholic faith against his will, Our sense of duty demands that We condemn the act. For men must be effectively drawn to the truth by the Father of light through the spirit of His beloved Son, because, endowed as they are with free will, they can misuse their freedom under the impulse of mental agitation and base desires.
I hope some will take a few moments to listen to the evangelist here with the heart, scroll to 13:39 minutes. He is not a Catholic, but I felt his words were really poignant and on the mark, straight from the Lord.

“He that is not against Me, is FOR Me.” Good reminder, folks.
 
Francis:
“I believe in God, not in a Catholic God; there is no Catholic God. There is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor, but God, the Father, Abba, is the light and the Creator. This is my Being.”
“Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move toward what they think is good. … Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
blogs.lcms.org/2013/excerpts-from-pope-francis-second-explosive-interview
 
Google search has many websites that all say the same thing. No, it is not a falsehood.
And this is why I have a problem with this kind of thread when some posters unknowingly state postions quite contrary to the Church.
 
The question itself is not easy to answer. The Church teaches that it does not know who is in heaven unless they have been canonized as a Saint. It’s very possible for a Protestant to go to heaven, but it’s not known. Their hearts are in the right house, but they are in the wrong room. If they can go to heaven, it’s probably harder for them to achieve so. So it’s possible God may save them, but we don’t know.
Code:
         * "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"*

God bless. 😃
 
The question itself is not easy to answer. The Church teaches that it does not know who is in heaven unless they have been canonized as a Saint. It’s very possible for a Protestant to go to heaven, but it’s not known. Their hearts are in the right house, but they are in the wrong room. If they can go to heaven, it’s probably harder for them to achieve so. So it’s possible God may save them, but we don’t know.
Code:
         * "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"*

God bless. 😃
So what I am asking can a Protestant only go to heaven out of no knowing the truth
 
So what I am asking can a Protestant only go to heaven out of no knowing the truth
Let me ask you some questions, Adamski.
Are they baptized? If so, do they have the Holy Spirit bestowed on them?
If yes, then does Romans 8:15-17 apply to them? If they are sons, are they also heirs?
Rom. 8:15-17 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.,
Vatican Council II document Lumen Gentium 15 states:
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who,** being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian**, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Savior. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit,** for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying** power.
Did the Church promote a false doctrine in the wording of the above document? Note that it is not simply a document, but a “Dogmatic Constitution”.

Pope SAINT John Paul II wrote here that “Certainly, the condition “inculpably ignorant” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, “Grace works in an unseen way… The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery” (GS 22).”

You answer and tell me now, is it possible for them to go to heaven?
 
Adamski,

One more correction. I posted two links previously where Dmar listed several writings from saints, popes, and Fathers of the Church. However, in the excerpt from Pope Pius IX in 1863, the better translation is this one, which may be helpful for you.

In his encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore of 10 August, 1863, Pius IX addressed the Italian bishops:

“It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”

We know also from St.Paul’s teaching in the very first century that the natural law he taught in Romans 2:14-16 is what Pope Pius IX was referencing in this encyclical.

So, how say you, my friend?
 
marymary1975;12103627]I think you are just not reading and you are skipping things based on your biased vision. The principal doctrine of the church is that there is NO salvation outside of the catholic church. Conscious or not conscious there is no salvation outside the church. Many dont like it but that is the doctrine.
The Church, especially since Vatican II, has developed a thoroughly inclusive understanding of soteriology in relation to other faiths, that has an explicitly theological foundation.

St. Pope John Paul II explained that this approach to other religions is based upon sacred tradition, the church fathers and the very origins of the Christian revelation:

Quote:
"…You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.

The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: “There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people’s hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death…and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language” (Nostra Aetate 1-2).



The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…

In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.

I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.…”
  • Pope Saint John Paul II (1994), Crossing the Threshold of Hope
He is expressing a theological statement. Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution and it explains that the Holy Spirit operates outside the church among non-believers. This is the document which states that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. A dogmatic constitution of the Magisterium and not some paper produced by the Vatican City State.

Note this section:

Quote:
The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions

“…Everyone who has joined the ranks of Christ must be a glowing point of light in the world, a nucleus of love, a leaven of the whole mass. He will be so in proportion to his degree of spiritual union with God…”
  • Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris (1963)
Thank you,
Gary
 
marymary1975;12103627]I think you are just not reading and you are skipping things based on your biased vision. The principal doctrine of the church is that there is NO salvation outside of the catholic church. Conscious or not conscious there is no salvation outside the church. Many dont like it but that is the doctrine.
Good Evening MaryMary:

The Church, especially since Vatican II, has developed a thoroughly inclusive understanding of soteriology in relation to other faiths, that has an explicitly theological foundation and is not “political and business positions”.

The church does not have a “public relations” agenda that is substantially different from its actual doctrines. If it did, then it would be failing in its mission to preach the truth.

Many Catholics are not thoroughly accounted with the minutiae of church teachings, nor should one expect them to be, especially in such an opaque field of study as the salvation of non-believers and the “seeds of the word” doctrine of the Fathers which sees truth in other faiths implanted by the Holy Spirit.

St. Pope John Paul II explained that this approach to other religions is based upon sacred tradition, the church fathers and the very origins of the Christian revelation:

Quote:
"…You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.

The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: “There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people’s hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death…and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language” (Nostra Aetate 1-2).



The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…

In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.

I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.…”
  • Pope Saint John Paul II (1994), Crossing the Threshold of Hope
This is not a statement of PR bluff. He expressing a theological statement. If he is teaching error here then he is failing as a pontiff. Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution and it explains that the Holy Spirit operates outside the church among non-believers. This is the document which states that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. A dogmatic constitution of the Magisterium and not some paper produced by the Vatican City State.

Note this section:

Quote:
The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions

It utterly contradicts what you have said above.

I actually would say that brother Servant is perceiving something that you are not.

“…Everyone who has joined the ranks of Christ must be a glowing point of light in the world, a nucleus of love, a leaven of the whole mass. He will be so in proportion to his degree of spiritual union with God…”
  • Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris (1963)
 
Mary, it is obvious to the reader that you are submitting this information based on your own biased and personal interpretation, and not as the Church teaches. Your links do not fully appreciate the essence of the teaching behind them. For instance with CCC 1777, there is a footnote #48. Did you read it? It is scripture, what we believe and know is inerrant truth, as taught by St. Paul in Romans 2:14-16, regarding the natural law written in the heart, and how God judges it… Maybe you should read that first.

Going a bit further into CCC 1791, footnote #59 is from the Vatican II Council Document Gaudiem et Spes Article 16, which teaches solemnly, “For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.”
…] Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity. The same cannot be said for a man who cares but little for truth and goodness, or for a conscience which by degrees grows practically sightless as a result of habitual sin.

.
Thank the Lord for a post of wisdom and knowledge, spiced with a touch of Catholic compassion arising from our knowledge of the Mercy of the Lord.
This thread is full of judgmental statements on the eternal judgement of others. Please let us leave this decision to the only Judge that matters. Again I am too selfish and am too busy fending for myself in this race to judge the fate of millions of good people based on our pride that we know the will of God. Such arrogance should have died in our humility if not in our last examination of conscience.
 
Mary, it is obvious to the reader that you are submitting this information based on your own biased and personal interpretation, and not as the Church teaches. Your links do not fully appreciate the essence of the teaching behind them. For instance with CCC 1777, there is a footnote #48. Did you read it? It is scripture, what we believe and know is inerrant truth, as taught by St. Paul in Romans 2:14-16, regarding the natural law written in the heart, and how God judges it… Maybe you should read that first.

Going a bit further into CCC 1791, footnote #59 is from the Vatican II Council Document Gaudiem et Spes Article 16, which teaches solemnly, “For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.”
…] Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity. The same cannot be said for a man who cares but little for truth and goodness, or for a conscience which by degrees grows practically sightless as a result of habitual sin.

.
Thank the Lord for a post of wisdom and knowledge, spiced with a touch of Catholic compassion arising from our knowledge of the Mercy of the Lord.
This thread is full of judgmental statements on the eternal judgement of others. Please let us leave this decision to the only Judge that matters. Again I am too selfish and am too busy fending for myself in this race to judge the fate of millions of good people based on our pride that we know the will of God. Such arrogance should have died in our humility if not in our last examination of conscience.
 
He is expressing a theological statement. Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution and it explains that the Holy Spirit operates outside the church among non-believers. This is the document which states that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. A dogmatic constitution of the Magisterium and not some paper produced by the Vatican City State.
I have a problem with the words I have made red above. “Allah” is NOT the same God as Catholics and Protestants worship. Allah is a god who has NO Son, and without the Son no one can be saved. Period.

I have read or heard of accounts of the Holy Spirit working with Muslims and bringing them to saving faith in Christ (sometimes by the aid of dreams or visions), but still ultimately they had to believe in Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins and resurrection for them to be saved. It is all by grace through faith, the same way anyone — Protestants included — gets saved.
 
I have a problem with the words I have made red above. “Allah” is NOT the same God as Catholics and Protestants worship. Allah is a god who has NO Son, and without the Son no one can be saved. Period.
Hi Phil,
He was correct in his statement referring to Lumen Gentium, Art. 16, where we read:
“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

It is true, though, that they do not have an understanding or awareness of God’s Son, but according to this teaching, they are included in the plan of salvation. I would suspect it would fall under the natural law as taught by St. Paul in Romans 2:14-16. Those persons are not said to know the Son, either, but may attain salvation. God does not bind His salvation exclusively to those who know His Son, for many are truly invincibly ignorant, which is the essence of this topic. You may want to read some of the ofher posts herein. 🙂

Following the natural law written by God in the heart, may bring one to what the Church calls “baptism of desire.” It is still baptism, no doubt about it. The Church taught this many years ago, you may remember, in the Baltimore Catechism, and St. Thomas Aquinas also taught this way back in the 12th century… The Church has not changed her teaching.

**BC 323. **How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire?
An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.
If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him.

**Acts 10:34-35 **Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, “In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.”

 
Oops, Phil, I just noticed you are not Catholic, so the reference to our Catechism and St. Thomas is not going to be very familiar to you at all. Instead, then, I refer you to Acts Chapter 10, the story of Cornelius and the resulting enlightenment recorded by St. Peter in verses 34-35. That verse would correspond better to your understanding, I would think.

You may remember that Peter did not want anything to do with outsiders, until God corrected him in a three-fold vision earlier in the chapter. We see a true “baptism of desire” wherein Cornelius received the Holy Spirit **prior **to his actual baptism bestowed by Peter a bit later. This is one of the judgments of God that we must leave to Him.
 
I have a problem with the words I have made red above. “Allah” is NOT the same God as Catholics and Protestants worship. Allah is a god who has NO Son, and without the Son no one can be saved. Period.

I have read or heard of accounts of the Holy Spirit working with Muslims and bringing them to saving faith in Christ (sometimes by the aid of dreams or visions), but still ultimately they had to believe in Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins and resurrection for them to be saved. It is all by grace through faith, the same way anyone — Protestants included — gets saved.
Good Afternoon Phil: The question was in regards to the stance of the Catholic Church on the matter of salvation outside the Church. What I provided were statements by recent Popes on the matter. As for your personal beliefs or mine, well they are what they are. You have stated for instance that you believe that such and such criteria have to be met. I believe differently than you, however, I simply posted what has been taught. What I am posting is not what I think or what you think.

Thank you,
Gary
 
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