Can Protestants Remarry Validly?

[PietroPaolo]

I usually give everyone the benefit of the doubt,and there are no hard and fast rules for things like this where my personal interest level is minimal.

I don’t know any gay couples who’d invite me to a wedding, but would give some neutral reason not to go if asked anyway. polygamy? not permitted anywhere, as far as I know. same answer.

not trying to be overly argumentative here, but I honestly cannot see myself turning down a close friend’s invitation to the type of wedding the OP posits because it is scandalous, or whatever the terminology is here.

would you? known someone for 20 years, maybe a business partner, maybe someone you served with overseas, definitely a close friend… turn him down because his marriage is invalid under CCC rules?

How long I’ve known someone or my relationship to them seems to be beside the point. In fact, the closer you are to someone the greater the responsibility would seem to be to help them avoid entering into a sinful union.

Why would you not go to a gay wedding or a polygamous wedding (aside from the lack of invitations and current illegal status)? Why give a neutral excuse in these cases, but party hearty at what can fairly be termed ‘serial polygamy’?

Finally, I’ll point out - it isn’t that the marriage is invalid “under CCC rules” - its that it is in actual fact invalid (i.e. it is not really a marriage at all) that is the problem.

 

[Fairwinds]

How long I’ve known someone or my relationship to them seems to be beside the point. In fact, the closer you are to someone the greater the responsibility would seem to be to help them avoid entering into a sinful union.

you should answer my question, I answered yours honestly. is that a “yes, I’d go to a marriage of a friend of 20 years” or “no I wouldn’t”.

Why would you not go to a gay wedding or a polygamous wedding (aside from the lack of invitations and current illegal status)? Why give a neutral excuse in these cases, but party hearty at what can fairly be termed ‘serial polygamy’?

call it my orthodox lifestyle, but I don’t know any gay or polygamous couples. they wouldn’t fit into my social circle. If I knew a gay couple that well, I certainly wouldn’t be the person I am now, so I just can’t answer your hypothetical.

Finally, I’ll point out - it isn’t that the marriage is invalid “under CCC rules” - its that it is in actual fact invalid (i.e. it is not really a marriage at all) that is the problem.

that’s cool. you’re talking about the gay marriage or the protestant marriage in the OP?

 

[Peebo]

Just playing devils advocate…we have a Catholic family…the husband is an habitual adulterer…he drinks… physically and mentally abuses his wife…he abuses his children…the family is dysfunctional…the husband never attends mass…the wife tries to…the children are delinquent…they cannot divorce because they are Catholic and so a life of misery continues …the same situation in a Protestant family…the wife leaves the husband because of his infidelity and abuse…takes the kids from out of the abusive situation…she divorces according to her church teachings…she eventually finds a good Protestant man and marries him…he gets on well with her kids and they become a happy stable family…they attend their church and live good christian lives…over to you folks.

 

[Memaw]

Just playing devils advocate…we have a Catholic family…the husband is an habitual adulterer…he drinks… physically and mentally abuses his wife…he abuses his children…the family is dysfunctional…the husband never attends mass…the wife tries to…the children are delinquent…they cannot divorce because they are Catholic and so a life of misery continues …the same situation in a Protestant family…the wife leaves the husband because of his infidelity and abuse…takes the kids from out of the abusive situation…she divorces according to her church teachings…she eventually finds a good Protestant man and marries him…he gets on well with her kids and they become a happy stable family…they attend their church and live good christian lives…over to you folks.

A Catholic wife never has to stay in an abusive Marriage. She can get a civil divorce to protect herself and her children. But she is not free to marry again as long as her first Marriage is a valid Sacramental marriage. One can’t do evil, (adultery) to gain good. God Bless, Memaw

 

[PietroPaolo]

you should answer my question, I answered yours honestly. is that a “yes, I’d go to a marriage of a friend of 20 years” or “no I wouldn’t”.

That’s a no I wouldn’t.

call it my orthodox lifestyle, but I don’t know any gay or polygamous couples. they wouldn’t fit into my social circle. If I knew a gay couple that well, I certainly wouldn’t be the person I am now, so I just can’t answer your hypothetical.

It might be something to ponder. You seem to be saying you have no principled reason to not attend an same sex or a polygamous wedding, citing only your lack of an invitation to such an event.

that’s cool. you’re talking about the gay marriage or the protestant marriage in the OP?

Both.

Don’t you think our family and friends would be okay with our living our Catholic faith in such a way that prevents us from attending invalid weddings? You wouldn’t look sideways at an Orthodox Jewish man turning down an invitation to a pig roast or to a Muslim turning down your offer to go to the bar after work. Why should others take such a critical view of Catholics when we live our Faith?

 

[PietroPaolo]

Just playing devils advocate…we have a Catholic family…the husband is an habitual adulterer…he drinks… physically and mentally abuses his wife…he abuses his children…the family is dysfunctional…the husband never attends mass…the wife tries to…the children are delinquent…they cannot divorce because they are Catholic and so a life of misery continues …the same situation in a Protestant family…the wife leaves the husband because of his infidelity and abuse…takes the kids from out of the abusive situation…she divorces according to her church teachings…she eventually finds a good Protestant man and marries him…he gets on well with her kids and they become a happy stable family…they attend their church and live good christian lives…over to you folks.

This is consequentialism, the theory that moral acts are judged solely on their outcomes (consequences) which is erroneous because one can never do evil (get divorced and remarried) to achieve a good end (create a stable family for your kids). BTW, the wife would not have to stay with the abusive husband, she could leave and even get a civil divorce and not break Church teaching. She just can’t marry again as she is still (in the eyes of God) married to the abusive man and you can’t be married to more than one person at a time. It’s impossible.

 

[PietroPaolo]

A Catholic wife never has to stay in an abusive Marriage. She can get a civil divorce to protect herself and her children. But she is not free to marry again as long as her first Marriage is a valid Sacramental marriage. One can’t do evil, (adultery) to gain good. God Bless, Memaw

 

[1ke]

Just playing devils advocate…

Not really.

we have a Catholic family…the husband is an habitual adulterer…he drinks… physically and mentally abuses his wife…he abuses his children…the family is dysfunctional…the husband never attends mass…the wife tries to…the children are delinquent…they cannot divorce because they are Catholic and so a life of misery continues

This is a red herring.

A Catholic wife and children in an abusive situation are under no obligation to remain. Legal separation or divorce are valid avenues.

She may not marry another, unless her marriage is found to be invalid.

…the same situation in a Protestant family…the wife leaves the husband because of his infidelity and abuse…takes the kids from out of the abusive situation…she divorces according to her church teachings…

It is not her church who gives her the ability to legally separate herself from abuse.

she eventually finds a good Protestant man and marries him…he gets on well with her kids and they become a happy stable family…they attend their church and live good christian lives…over to you folks.

She is not free to marry.

 

[Fairwinds]

…It might be something to ponder. You seem to be saying you have no principled reason to not attend an same sex or a polygamous wedding, citing only your lack of an invitation to such an event.

I said more than that, but in your present argumentative mood, what’s the point of explaining?

.
Don’t you think our family and friends would be okay with our living our Catholic faith in such a way that prevents us from attending invalid weddings? You wouldn’t look sideways at an Orthodox Jewish man turning down an invitation to a pig roast or to a Muslim turning down your offer to go to the bar after work. Why should others take such a critical view of Catholics when we live our Faith?

I think it makes us look petty. YMMV.

 

[Peebo]

While I don’t disagree with the points given why divorced Catholics can’t remarry unless they can get an annulment…how many Catholics would feel alienated from the church knowing they did no wrong…that their spouse walked out on them…that their church told them they can’t remarry unless they can show that their marriage was invalid…and that added with the stress of their spouse leaving them…they would feel they are being treated unfairly…I know some of my( Catholic) family members who have gone through divorce…and later they have found someone else…none of them attend the Catholic Church anymore…sad to say…they either remarry in a protestant church or a civil ceremony…I’m sure most of us know people who have left the church because of this…there would have to be millions if not tens of millions of Catholics who have left for this reason…I’m not advocating ease of divorce and remarrying like Protestant churches…maybe if the process of annulment was made easier many Catholics would come back to their faith…it can take a long time…go before a panel…and be quite expensive…many probably feel they are the ones being persecuted so they don’t bother…surely the church has authority to make the process that is already in place simpler…I know that some will say thems the rules…take it or leave it…unfortunately that won’t bring them back home to the Catholic Church…I’m sure there must be many of us practicing Catholics who would like to see their family members or friends come back if shown a bit more compassion and understanding for their circumstances

 

[PietroPaolo]

I said more than that, but in your present argumentative mood, what’s the point of explaining?

What’s wrong with arguing? Isn’t argument a path to Truth (i.e. Christ)?

I think it makes us look petty. YMMV.

Is not looking petty the summum bonum? Isn’t being faithful more important? You seem overly concerned with how we Catholics seem to the world but remember the words of Our Lord, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” (Matt 5:11)

 

[Fairwinds]

While I don’t disagree with the points given why divorced Catholics can’t remarry unless they can get an annulment…how many Catholics would feel alienated from the church knowing they did no wrong…that their spouse walked out on them…that their church told them they can’t remarry unless they can show that their marriage was invalid…and that added with the stress of their spouse leaving them…they would feel they are being treated unfairly…I know some of my( Catholic) family members who have gone through divorce…and later they have found someone else…none of them attend the Catholic Church anymore…sad to say…they either remarry in a protestant church or a civil ceremony…I’m sure most of us know people who have left the church because of this…there would have to be millions if not tens of millions of Catholics who have left for this reason…I’m not advocating ease of divorce and remarrying like Protestant churches…maybe if the process of annulment was made easier many Catholics would come back to their faith…it can take a long time…go before a panel…and be quite expensive…many probably feel they are the ones being persecuted so they don’t bother…surely the church has authority to make the process that is already in place simpler…I know that some will say thems the rules…take it or leave it…unfortunately that won’t bring them back home to the Catholic Church…I’m sure there must be many of us practicing Catholics who would like to see their family members or friends come back if shown a bit more compassion and understanding for their circumstances

that will never happen.

 

[PietroPaolo]

While I don’t disagree with the points given why divorced Catholics can’t remarry unless they can get an annulment…how many Catholics would feel alienated from the church knowing they did no wrong…that their spouse walked out on them…that their church told them they can’t remarry unless they can show that their marriage was invalid…and that added with the stress of their spouse leaving them…they would feel they are being treated unfairly…I know some of my( Catholic) family members who have gone through divorce…and later they have found someone else…none of them attend the Catholic Church anymore…sad to say…they either remarry in a protestant church or a civil ceremony…I’m sure most of us know people who have left the church because of this…there would have to be millions if not tens of millions of Catholics who have left for this reason…I’m not advocating ease of divorce and remarrying like Protestant churches…maybe if the process of annulment was made easier many Catholics would come back to their faith…it can take a long time…go before a panel…and be quite expensive…many probably feel they are the ones being persecuted so they don’t bother…surely the church has authority to make the process that is already in place simpler…I know that some will say thems the rules…take it or leave it…unfortunately that won’t bring them back home to the Catholic Church…I’m sure there must be many of us practicing Catholics who would like to see their family members or friends come back if shown a bit more compassion and understanding for their circumstances

Should the Church compromise on Christ’s teaching to get more people in the pews? On principal I’d say no. How’s that working for the dying mainstream Protestant denoms? Anyone seen people flocking to the local Episcopal church lately?

 

[PietroPaolo]

that will never happen.

Deo gratias!

 

[Peebo]

Deo gratias!

I guess evangelical protestants aren’t the only ones with holier than thou attitudes…

 

[Peebo]

I guess evangelical protestants aren’t the only ones with holier than thou attitudes…

I meant that for the comment by fairwinds…“that will never happen”…

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

No, that is not clearly the case with the OP. This is nowhere in the OP.

It’s implicit. Whenever a poster mentions a certain religion, I make the assumption that the persons involved live by and understand that religion’s “rules.” Presbyterians allow for divorce in the case of adultery and (if I remember correctly) abandonment.

No it doesn’t. Else the Church would not examine each case individually but would rule all such marriages de facto invalid. The Church does not do so.

What protestant sects do or do not teach about marriage does not determine the will at the exchange of consent.

I understand that it is possible that the Presbyterians might not understand or might reject aspects of their own religion, but I typically don’t assume this nor use it as the starting point of my comments.

If one specifically intends this, and you can prove it, then yes that is grounds to pursue nullity.

Conceptually, it is interesting. Presbyterians allow divorce in certain circumstances, one of which pertains to the OP. What has to be proven? It seems that one would specifically have to reject this particular reason for divorce prior to the exchange of consent to not have grounds to pursue nullity (not likely given both parties are non-Catholic).

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Okay, I see your point, however you seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too. On the one hand, you assume a Protestant marriage is in fact a valid marriage and celebrate the day with your friends. On the other hand, you assume the same marriage is invalid when your friend divorces and remarries. The Church’s position is consistent. Assume the first marriage is valid unless proven otherwise. All subsequent remarriages (until the death of the first spouse) are therefore ipso facto invalid.

I’m one that treats people in the context of their own belief system. I’m not aware of any major religion, including major protestant sect, or any secular society that treats the indissolubility of marriage the way Catholics do. Therefore, it is a reasonable assumption that the parties involved have given defective consent, notably that marriage is permanent with exceptions (divorce, adultery), at which point that party may divorce and remarry. Because of this, when non-Catholics get married, I have no idea which marriages are or are not valid.

Obviously, the marriage is presumed valid if one wishes to convert to Catholicism or convalidate a subsequent marriage. However, presumption of validity does not equal validity.

 

[1ke]

It’s implicit. Whenever a poster mentions a certain religion, I make the assumption that the persons involved live by and understand that religion’s “rules.” Presbyterians allow for divorce in the case of adultery and (if I remember correctly) abandonment.

No it is not implicit.

I understand that it is possible that the Presbyterians might not understand or might reject aspects of their own religion, but I typically don’t assume this nor use it as the starting point of my comments.

I think you are overstating your position that this is a “teaching” of their religion.

Marriage is a natural institution, the requirements to marry are minimal. One need have no religion to marry validly. I encourage you to read up on what the Church teaches in the area of consent and intent.

Conceptually, it is interesting. Presbyterians allow divorce in certain circumstances, one of which pertains to the OP. What has to be proven?

That the individual person had a defect of consent.

It seems that one would specifically have to reject this particular reason for divorce prior to the exchange of consent to not have grounds to pursue nullity (not likely given both parties are non-Catholic).

NO. That is NOT what the Church teaches on this matter at all.

 

[Peebo]

Should the Church compromise on Christ’s teaching to get more people in the pews? On principal I’d say no. How’s that working for the dying mainstream Protestant denoms? Anyone seen people flocking to the local Episcopal church lately?

I never said the church should compromise…if we go that route then Jesus also never taught that we could get an annulment or determine that a marriage was invalid…as for mainstream churches dying…how many Catholics now attend mass or follow church teachings…in countries like Brazil the EvangelicaL/Pentecostal churches are converting Catholics to their churches by the pew-load…as for the Episcopal church…most of the problem in that church is over the ordination of women priests and Bishops and an open acceptance of"gay" priests and laity…all I was asking that if the church…which already has the authority to decide if a marriage is valid or invalid…could find a faster more compassionate way to grant an annulment…that is not compromising …watering down or whatever you like to call it…a murderer can confess his or her sin…receive absolution and still receive the Eucharist… divorced Catholics…maybe through no fault of their own…are condemned to a life of lonliness for themselves and single parenthood for their children…woe to them if they fall in love and marry again…they are barred from receiving the Eucharist and are branded as adulterers…i’m sorry…how many of these ex or lapsed Catholics would love to return to the church…maybe if we didn’t pride ourselves that divorce will never happen to us…and then find ourselves in their shoes…we might look at it from a different perspective.