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Rence
Guest
I’m sorry but it doesn’t. However, images of rape victims are very disturbing to me.
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Rence
Guest
I’m sorry to have to disrespectfully disagree with you but my body is my own. My life is my own. And my decisions to govern my body and my life are my own. Telling me that I’m wrong about my feelings regarding rape is useless because I believe with all my heart and mind in what I am saying. I believe it is immoral to force a woman to be pregnant as a result of rape. I understand that you don’t agree with me. You don’t have to. That’s the beauty of it. We are each free to govern our body as we see appropriate.
I understand that you feel strongly about your idea that I don’t own my own body. But whether or not YOU believe that my body is my own really doesn’t mean anything to anyone but you and your cohorts. it is still my decision to govern the body that God gave to me, and entrusted to me. If it goes against my conscience to be made pregnant by a rapist, I really not sure there is anything that you can say that can convince me otherwise. The idea is repulsive to me that someone else should be able to make decisions about my body for me.
You have the right to disagree with me, and follow your own conscience Tantum. Doesn’t that mean anything to you? Can you not be grateful for the choices available to you? Why do you have this need to control others, when you have the right to make your own decisions? I’m happy for you that you are free to choose. It’s the way it should be. I would fight for your rights too Tantum.
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Do you know what your posts reveal? They reveal that you worship a false god. Your god is women. That’s why you are very concerned about things that may offfend women, but have no concern about things that offend God (such as murder). All sins blind us, but worshipping a false god will blind of more than anything else. That is why you have such a twisted view of reality. In your world, pictures of aborted babies are no big deal, but a picture of a women being offended is the greatest evil. You neither care about the true God and that which offends Him, nor about your fellow man. Your only concern is with your false god (women) and that which offends them. May the scales fall from your eyes.
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Rence
Guest
Are you kidding me? That is defintely not a Catholic teaching, and if it is, it’s not the kind of Catholic that I appreciate at all. You toot your horn about what a good Catholic you are, but you don’t show it with your behavior. You really aught to consider show some Catholic kindness and tolerance, instead of un-Christian venom. You should be praying for me, not making false claims against me wishing bad things to happen to me. :tsktsk: It’s okay, I forgive you. I know you really are upset right now.
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Our world is not lacking in tolerance, it is lacking in truth. Go back and read your posts and you will see that your god is women. That’s why you aren’t concerned about that which offends the real God, but you are very concerned about what offends your false god. You don’t even care about murder; not even about murder of babies, yet you are very offended if someone even says something that you deem offensive to your god.
And, BTW, I prayed my Rosary for you earlier. True charity is not about being nice and “tolerant”, it is about loving God (first) and loving your fellow man (or women) out of love for God. If I didn’t care about you (your eternal salvation), I wouldn’t have bothered posting, and surely wouldn’t have said my Rosary for you.
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Rence
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Thank you for praying for me, I always invite and appreciate prayers. But you’re really way too angry and antagonistic, and I’m not going to tolerate anymore personal attacks, baiting and abusive behavior from you. I can tolerate differences of opinions but I won’t tolerate any abuse. Life is too short for this nonsense. Go kick your dog or something.
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
No, I’m not angry.
You won’t tolerate anyone offending you, yet you yourself are in favor of murdering completely innocent people? Hopefully one day you will get as upset about that which offends the true God as you do over that which offends you and your false god.
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hellopeople
Guest
I would hope that it is anger that would lead you to something so offensive. This forum is full of people like you on their high horses.
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Cristian_B
Guest
Do you agree with abortion?
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Cristian_B
Guest
I have hints that you agree with abortion.
You said that you own your body. I disagree because we’ve been bought with a price. But let’s say that you are right.
You own your own body… but do you own others? Do you own other lives? The baby has as much free will as you do. Isn’t a mother supposed to love a child more than herself? Therefore how can she love her life more than her baby’s life? This is not what Jesus would do. He loved our lives more than His own and He went as far as to die on the cross for us, but a woman that aborts loves her life more than the baby’s, because she does it because of shame, etc. and not because of love. If it does not come from love, and love is God, then it is a sin.
You also said that the decisions to govern your life and body are your own. I agree with that. But is the body of the baby yours? Is his life in your hands? Do you own him? You don’t own the body of the child. You own yours. You can do whatever you want with your body, but the baby’s body is not yours, but is his. His body was created by God and everything in his body is a gift for the baby alone from God. Do you have the right to destroy what God has created?
“The idea is repulsive to me that someone else should be able to make decisions about my body for me.” *Your own mouth condemns you … your own lips testify against you. *~Job 15:6 *I will judge you by your own words … ~*Luke 19:22 You yourself said that you find repulsive the idea for someone to make decisions about your body. I guess you wouldn’t like for someone to make a tattoo on your body without you consent, but you agree that someone can make the decision to destroy your body? Did the baby sign a paper or did he agree for his body to be destroyed? I believe the baby would find too just like you the idea that someone can choose to destroy his own body repulsive, or even more… it is his life after all.
I have an idea. Since the baby can’t decide that in the womb, wait for him to grow, and when he grows ask him if he wants you to kill him. I’m sure that he would say no, but you believe that he could talk and think right now he would say yes? Where is the logic? You can do what ever you want with your life and body, but the baby’s life is not your life and the baby’s body is not your body.
**
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Doc_Keele
Guest
The direction that some posters are taking, that human beings don’t have autonomy, will certainly not persuade many people and furthermore is quite a disturbing attitude. Not an argument that will win many arguments or win many people or policy makers over.
It seems to make a person a slave to God, willing or not.
It seems to make a person a slave to God, willing or not.
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o_mlly
Guest
There is a difference between personal autonomy and personal authority, is there not? To admit personal autonomy is not to equivocally admit authority. The latter requires argument; the former merely recognition.
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Since your signature says you enjoy philosophical discussions, I’ll address your point on a slightly deeper level. The first point to make is that man is not truly free to do whatever he wants. Since man is a rational creature with a free will, he is capable of making a moral choice, and as such is responsible for his moral acts. This moral responsibility brings with it a corresponding duty to obey the law given to him by God. As such, man is not truly free (morally free) to disobey God’s law. If he was irrational (like the animals), he would not have such a responsibility; but since he does have a rational nature and free will, he is bound to obey what God commands.
When discussing man’s autonomy, we must distinguish between *natural liberty *(free will), and moral liberty. As a result of our natural liberty, we can do anything we want to do. We can do good to our fellow man, or we can kill our fellow man. Each of these (and anything else) is possible for us since we possess a free will.
Moral liberty, which has its foundation in God’s law, sets the boundaries for our natural liberty. Whereas man has the ability (natural liberty - “free will”) to do anything he wants (including commit murder or rape, to use the two examples being discussed in this thread), he is only permitted (moral liberty) to do what God allows. Man is completely free to act within the boundaries of God’s law, but he is not truly free to disobey God’s law (since man is by nature rational) Therefore, man is not completely autonomous, but only autonomous to the extent that his actions fall within the boundaries of God’s law. If man was not a rational creature, he would not be bound to submit to God’s law; but since he does possess a rational nature and free will, he has a moral responsibility to obey what God commands.
(As an aside, an excellent enyclical to read on the nature of human liberty (which shines the clear light of truth on many modern errors), is Libertas, by Pope Leo XIII. If you enjoy philosophy, I think you will find this encyclical very interesting.)
If anyone claims that a women can murder her own child, on what basis would they claim a man should not be allowed to rape a women? If an immoral women is permitted to violate the 5th commandment, why should an immoral man not be permitted to violate the 6th and 9th?
God gave us commandments for a reason, and we are bound to accept and obey all of them. Liberalism, which is rooted in a false understanding of human liberty, denies, either in theory or in practice, that man is bound to submit to God’s law. And it is this error that’s at the root of many modern problems. Liberalism is simply the non-servium (I will not serve) of Lucifer. A Liberal will ignores God’s law, unless God’s law happens to benefit them. For example, Liberal women promote God’s law when it forbids rape, but ignore God’s law when it forbids murder.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Not quite sure what you mean - could you expand? Are you saying people don’t have moral authority to make their own decisions?
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JReducation
Guest
I know I just walked in, but I can’t help but be interested in this subject, because this is what my community does as its primary ministry, preach and teach the Gospel of Life. There are several points that caught my attention.
MY BODY IS MINE. The human body is not a piece of property. It is not ours as is our car. It has been given to us as a gift by the Creator. It was created by the hand of God, using the biological laws that he created. No, we may not always do with our bodies what we want. We may only do with our bodies what God allows us to do. Just as it would be a grave sin to destroy ourselves, unless one is mentally ill, it is also a grave sin to destroy another person. The scriptures are very clear on this. Only God is master over life and death.
NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO CARRY A RAPIST’S CHILD. There are two victims here, the person who was raped and the child. Rape is certainly a heinous crime. There is no debate about it. However, this is the circumstances under which God chose to create life. The rapist does not create life. He rapes. God creates life. Why God chooses to create life under these circumstances is known only to him. Do we have a right to destroy a life that God created? Absolutely not, this too is very clear in scripture and in Sacred Tradition. Does the mother have to keep the child? No. She can opt to give the child up for adoption. Does the mother have to bring the child into the world? Yes. The child’s life is not her property to dispose of as she wills and as we said; her body is not her property either. This too is very clear in scripture and Sacred tradition.
THEN WE ARE SLAVES TO GOD. A lot depends on how we define slavery. If by slaves one means that you must conform to God’s will, the answer is affirmative. God gives us freedom to choose between right and wrong, but not without consequences. Unlike a slave in the truest sense of the word, we do have freedom of choice, but God has rights. One of his rights is to dish out consequences for our choices, be they positive or negative consequences.
WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. This is true. But what is false is to believe that all opinions are equal or correct. The only opinion that is correct is that which conforms to the will of God. Any other opinion is of little use to us, because it will not lead us to salvation. St. Augustine once wrote that even a thief chooses what he believes to be good. But it does not mean that the thief is right. The thief believes that stealing is good because he can satisfy himself. Satisfying one is a good thing. However, the means that the thief uses to satisfy himself is contrary to the law of God. Therefore, the thief’s opinion is wrong. He cannot satisfy himself by stealing. Using the same logic, liberating oneself from the violence of rape is good. However, an abortion will not heal the pain of rape. It never has and never will. An abortion simply terminates the life of another human being, making him a victim of the rape. The mother’s action is turning her unborn child into a victim of the violence or rape by perpetuating violence. Another way of saying it is that the mother is trying to relieve her pain at the expense of a child who is not the cause of the pain, his father is. The action is unjustified and unjustifiable.
A person who has no faith may not realize this. But a person of faith knows better and is expected to live and act according to what he knows to be revealed truth. If he or she chooses to act contrary to the truth that he knows, then he or she is morally culpable of grave sin. If he or she endorses or approves of someone else acting contrary to revealed truth, he is also morally culpable of grave sin. One cannot be a person of faith and act contrary to that faith. Faith is not an opinion or a feeling. It is a value system that has been revealed by God and discovered by the believer. Once you have discovered it, no matter how difficult it may be, you are bound to it. In that regard, yes we are slaves to our faith. But it is not a slavery that strips us of our dignity. On the contrary, it is a relationship that guarantees our dignity and the dignity of others, especially those who cannot defend themselves.
In closing, let us remember the words of Mary in the scriptures. “I am the servant of the Lord. Be it done to me according to thy will.” To a Jew a servant was a slave. The Jews did not have paid servants. They owned their servants. So when Mary refers to herself as the servant of the Lord, she is in fact calling herself a slave. But it is a voluntary slavery. We voluntarily become slaves to God when we accept his will. The conception of a life is his will, not man’s will. Man cannot create life. He can only provide the material necessary to sustain life.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
MY BODY IS MINE. The human body is not a piece of property. It is not ours as is our car. It has been given to us as a gift by the Creator. It was created by the hand of God, using the biological laws that he created. No, we may not always do with our bodies what we want. We may only do with our bodies what God allows us to do. Just as it would be a grave sin to destroy ourselves, unless one is mentally ill, it is also a grave sin to destroy another person. The scriptures are very clear on this. Only God is master over life and death.
NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO CARRY A RAPIST’S CHILD. There are two victims here, the person who was raped and the child. Rape is certainly a heinous crime. There is no debate about it. However, this is the circumstances under which God chose to create life. The rapist does not create life. He rapes. God creates life. Why God chooses to create life under these circumstances is known only to him. Do we have a right to destroy a life that God created? Absolutely not, this too is very clear in scripture and in Sacred Tradition. Does the mother have to keep the child? No. She can opt to give the child up for adoption. Does the mother have to bring the child into the world? Yes. The child’s life is not her property to dispose of as she wills and as we said; her body is not her property either. This too is very clear in scripture and Sacred tradition.
THEN WE ARE SLAVES TO GOD. A lot depends on how we define slavery. If by slaves one means that you must conform to God’s will, the answer is affirmative. God gives us freedom to choose between right and wrong, but not without consequences. Unlike a slave in the truest sense of the word, we do have freedom of choice, but God has rights. One of his rights is to dish out consequences for our choices, be they positive or negative consequences.
WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. This is true. But what is false is to believe that all opinions are equal or correct. The only opinion that is correct is that which conforms to the will of God. Any other opinion is of little use to us, because it will not lead us to salvation. St. Augustine once wrote that even a thief chooses what he believes to be good. But it does not mean that the thief is right. The thief believes that stealing is good because he can satisfy himself. Satisfying one is a good thing. However, the means that the thief uses to satisfy himself is contrary to the law of God. Therefore, the thief’s opinion is wrong. He cannot satisfy himself by stealing. Using the same logic, liberating oneself from the violence of rape is good. However, an abortion will not heal the pain of rape. It never has and never will. An abortion simply terminates the life of another human being, making him a victim of the rape. The mother’s action is turning her unborn child into a victim of the violence or rape by perpetuating violence. Another way of saying it is that the mother is trying to relieve her pain at the expense of a child who is not the cause of the pain, his father is. The action is unjustified and unjustifiable.
A person who has no faith may not realize this. But a person of faith knows better and is expected to live and act according to what he knows to be revealed truth. If he or she chooses to act contrary to the truth that he knows, then he or she is morally culpable of grave sin. If he or she endorses or approves of someone else acting contrary to revealed truth, he is also morally culpable of grave sin. One cannot be a person of faith and act contrary to that faith. Faith is not an opinion or a feeling. It is a value system that has been revealed by God and discovered by the believer. Once you have discovered it, no matter how difficult it may be, you are bound to it. In that regard, yes we are slaves to our faith. But it is not a slavery that strips us of our dignity. On the contrary, it is a relationship that guarantees our dignity and the dignity of others, especially those who cannot defend themselves.
In closing, let us remember the words of Mary in the scriptures. “I am the servant of the Lord. Be it done to me according to thy will.” To a Jew a servant was a slave. The Jews did not have paid servants. They owned their servants. So when Mary refers to herself as the servant of the Lord, she is in fact calling herself a slave. But it is a voluntary slavery. We voluntarily become slaves to God when we accept his will. The conception of a life is his will, not man’s will. Man cannot create life. He can only provide the material necessary to sustain life.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Rence
Guest
I really did make what I agree with perfectly clear in my previous posts. Please reread them, and if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask. Here’s but a few pretty detailed posts as to what I agree with and disagree with:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6363279&postcount=647
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6363749&postcount=652
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6369472&postcount=675
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Rence
Guest
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Rence
Guest
You know Doc, I totally understand that some of the posters here are quite disturbed about the notion of a woman having the right to choose, even in the case of rape. But apparently they don’t realize just how disturbing they are to others. I shared some of these posts with various Catholics that I know in REAL LIFE and they were just as disturbed and concerned as I was, and they were both men and women. But that makes it GOOD for us because some of the posts here on the pro-life side were indeed disturbing enough to make a difference for the pro-choice side legally. It’s unfathomable to some that autonomy should be taken away from a woman (or anyone), and the public won’t allow it - catholic or not. So I guess, if this is how they want to represent the Church or the pro-life side of the debate, more power to them. It’s better for me and my cause. Just because you and are making some noise doesn’t mean others don’t share our views and values, they just do it quietly, which avoids controversy and accomplishes the same goals.
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
very well said. Thank you.
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