Can raped girls abort?

[Rence]

All this means for us, as prolife men and women, is that we can’t call preventing implantation “abortion” but rather what it is. Murder. They actually gave us this tool by making us NOT call it abortion. Kudos to them, they made our lives easier. I fully believe in life at conception. I also believe a woman isn’t “pregnant” until implantation has occured. That doesn’t mean that there is no child.

Well that rationale doesn’t make sense to me at all (how can it be murder if implantation hasn’t occured?), but hey, if it works on someone, that’s great

Now, I am curious about Plan B, especially since the church has allowed its use in cases of rape.

Do you have documentation of this? Do you have a link?

I am guessing that they (the church) have used their penetrating minds and incredible patience and discernment to look at the issue (as they have with so many others) and have spoken to a host of doctors that say that while they can’t guarantee that it doesn’t prevent implantation, it more than likely will not and the main purpose of Plan B is to prevent ovulation. Especially since the little swimmers can live up to a week in her body.

**It probably has something to do with primary versus secondary intention. For example (and this is an example so please someone, don’t come along and twist my words or say that my example is not related to the topic because it’s just an example) So, say for example, the medical treatment for an ectopic pregnancy is removal of the tube, which will rupture and cause hemorrhage if not removed. The primary intention is removal of the tube. The fact that there is an embryo in the tube is secondary. They’re not removing an embryo, they’re removing a tube. Therefore, treatment for an ectopic pregnancy is not defined as, “abortion”.

With Plan B, the primary action and primary intention is to inhibit ovulation. If there is no ovulation, there is no egg to be fertilized and therefore conception never took place. If, due to the effect off the hormones used, that" * it may *** " change the uterus so that implantation is inhibited, that’s secondary. That isn’t the what Plan B is used for, and the success rate for preventing pregnancy is substantially lower the longer you wait to take it, which means, “it may” is probably unlikely. But because there is enough hormone to “maybe”, they have to list it.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

link Nazi lol

accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-169219592/rape-victims-get-plan.html

It was all over the news a while ago. THought everyone heard about it. I’m trying to find information for a general acceptance…I remember seeing it a while ago, but I can’t find it again.

This article:

catholictranscript.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=268&Itemid=1

Discusses how widespread the use of plan B is in catholic hospitals to rape victims.

And yes, the willful destruction of a child at conception is still murder.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

I dont know how her husband felt about it…but I guess he had no say…Im sure he would have rather had his wife than the baby with no wife…

Yeah, I’m sure he looked at his child everyday and thought "I wish you were dead and your Mother still alive . I’m sure he wanted both of them with him. But we live in a sinful, fallen, world, and Christ has not yet returned to give us bodily Eternal Life, so, those enjoying Eternal Life have to be separate from those of us still here on earth for now. (We’ll all be together again one day, though ).

All I am saying…is you do not know what you would do if put in some of the situations some women are in who do not know GOd and do not see human life that way God does…to condemn the actions of another means you are GOd and that you have never sinned yourself.

No one is condemning anybody. I’m just tired of this lie that the Catholic Church teaches (and pro-lifers believe) that women should die so that babies can live. We love and cherish both, and, ideally, try to save both lives. But, we don’t live in a perfect world, and sometimes one or the other, or tragically, sometimes both, die. But we should do all in our power to save both, and NEVER deliberately kill one to save the other.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Fox]

No, she has no right. She should have the child then give it up for adoption.

 

[Rence]

link Nazi lol

accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-169219592/rape-victims-get-plan.html

It was all over the news a while ago. THought everyone heard about it. I’m trying to find information for a general acceptance…I remember seeing it a while ago, but I can’t find it again.

This article:

catholictranscript.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=268&Itemid=1

Discusses how widespread the use of plan B is in catholic hospitals to rape victims.

And yes, the willful destruction of a child at conception is still murder.

Thank you for the links! and Yes, I’ve heard of it, but I hear all kinds of things, usually one contradicting the other in a neverending cycle.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Thank you for the links! and Yes, I’ve heard of it, but I hear all kinds of things, usually one contradicting the other in a neverending cycle.

I understand totally. LOL:thumbsup:

 

[Apryl]

No one is condemning anybody. I’m just tired of this lie that the Catholic Church teaches (and pro-lifers believe) that women should die so that babies can live. We love and cherish both, and, ideally, try to save both lives. But, we don’t live in a perfect world, and sometimes one or the other, or tragically, sometimes both, die. But we should do all in our power to save both, and NEVER deliberately kill one to save the other.

LOL! Don’t hold back! Tell us how you REALLY feel!

But seriously: you say that ‘women should die so that babies can live’… in what situation is the woman dying? Are you speaking of a generic rape victim, or a woman with a terrible disease, disorder, etc situation?

The two are seldom the same, can we agree on that?

And I don’t believe the church teaches that a woman should die that the child should live… but it DOES say that the child should NOT die so that the woman should live. The Church doesn’t say that one life is worth more than another, and a baby, whether it has drawn a breath or not, is a human life.

Call down, get a mocha, ask some one to rub your feet: the finger pointing isn’t directed at you, and no one is saying that there should be some factory of children being born… just let’s all play nice in the sandbox.

 

[LittleSoldier]

But this can happen with other drugs and can happen naturally as well, this is not the same thing as Abortion.

I believe her point is that conception is the point at which a new human life begins, not when the fertilized ovum attaches to the uterine wall. There has been some dispute about this among medical personnel and “pro-choicers.” The Church teaches that once the ovum is fertilized a new life begins - a new life begins before implantation.

It is true that a high percentage of pregnancies result in spontaneous abortions. This can be a normal part of the physiology of humans. Many things can go wrong with an embryo and many die and are flushed from the body during menstruation. It can indicate an abnormal condition in the woman or it can happen just because it happens.

And of course there are drugs which can be taken by a woman who unknowingly is pregnant and that can cause problems. I don’t mean drugs taken in order to induce an abortion but medications taken by a woman who is ill and doesn’t know she is pregnant. But if there is a chance she is pregnant she should tell her physician (and actually her physician should always ask her) of that possibility so that any medication she takes will not hurt her child.

It’s not abortion in that case. And spontaneous abortion is not the same as procured abortion. Most people call spontaneous abortions “miscarriages” but the term “spontaneous abortion” is a medical term used when a pregnancy is lost in an early stage.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No one is condemning anybody. I’m just tired of this lie that the Catholic Church teaches (and pro-lifers believe) that women should die so that babies can live. We love and cherish both, and, ideally, try to save both lives. But, we don’t live in a perfect world, and sometimes one or the other, or tragically, sometimes both, die. But we should do all in our power to save both, and NEVER deliberately kill one to save the other.

In Christ,

Ellen

I know I’m going to be bashed for this but I’m going to try to explain my opinion. Removing an ectopic pregnancy is not a deliberate killing of an unborn child, but in a way it is. It’s hard for me to explain what I mean and I’ve been trying to word this thought correctly for a couple of years now.

According to the Church, removal of an ectopic pregnancy is an unwanted side-effect of the attempt to save the mother’s life. The child is going to die, anyway. He/she has not implanted into the uterine wall. The child is doomed. The mother can be saved, but in order to do this the pregnancy (and most likely the oviduct) must be removed.

Technically I guess you could say that this is deliberate killing of the embryo and in a way I would agree. I mean the oviduct containing the embryo is removed - that sounds to me like deliberate killing. And I think it is horrible that people are forced to do such a thing in order to save a human life.

But it has to happen. And a merciful God, who loves us, knows that it has to happen.

The Church teaches that this is not an abortion. I would say it isn’t an abortion when we look at it as Catholics, but it is an abortion when we look at it medically.

It gets even more complicated if the embryo has attached to the uterine wall and has developed more (not that it is any more of a person than an embryo in an oviduct). I don’t know of any medical conditions that force one to choose the mother or the baby but I’m sure they exist.

IMO I believe that if it comes down to being forced to choose one life over the other, the mother should be able to make that choice. If the mother is unable to make the decision, it should be the father. If both the mother and the father cannot make the decision, it goes to the physician. I mean this only when either the mother or the child is going to die. Both can’t live. There has to be a choice.

The best solution in any case is to save both the mother and the child, as both are loved creation of God with precious souls. Both should be protected.

I hope this is in line with Church teaching. If it isn’t, I defer to the Magisterium and apologize for being ignorant of Church teaching.

 

[Jermosh]

I believe her point is that conception is the point at which a new human life begins, not when the fertilized ovum attaches to the uterine wall. There has been some dispute about this among medical personnel and “pro-choicers.” The Church teaches that once the ovum is fertilized a new life begins - a new life begins before implantation.

It is true that a high percentage of pregnancies result in spontaneous abortions. This can be a normal part of the physiology of humans. Many things can go wrong with an embryo and many die and are flushed from the body during menstruation. It can indicate an abnormal condition in the woman or it can happen just because it happens.

And of course there are drugs which can be taken by a woman who unknowingly is pregnant and that can cause problems. I don’t mean drugs taken in order to induce an abortion but medications taken by a woman who is ill and doesn’t know she is pregnant. But if there is a chance she is pregnant she should tell her physician (and actually her physician should always ask her) of that possibility so that any medication she takes will not hurt her child.

It’s not abortion in that case. And spontaneous abortion is not the same as procured abortion. Most people call spontaneous abortions “miscarriages” but the term “spontaneous abortion” is a medical term used when a pregnancy is lost in an early stage.

Hmm my point was the use of a EC in this fashion is not the same thing as an Abortion. I think we can agree with that?

 

[ExLuxLucis]

Actually you can judge the situation for yourself. Just change the “fetus” into a born baby and apply the same procedure.

Image the same woman, with the same problem, but she HAS the baby. Then her boyfriend coerces her to hire someone to tear the child into in pieces, crush the skull, and throw it in a plastic bag and dump it in a dumpster (sorry if this is graphic, but this is how abortion works…). Do you think culpability is lessened? My heart truly goes out to the women who are pressured by jerks. THis is why I wish to support them so they don’t commit such a horrible sin against their bodies, their child, and their soul.

Basically, if you are trying to discern culpability in the case of abortions or preventing implantation, just use an already-born child to determine. Take for example intentionally preventing implantation. Say a woman HAS the child, but then decides she can’t care for it. So she puts it out of her house, doesn’t feed it, doesn’t clothe it and lets it die that way. Is her culpability lessened?

Yes, truly you are right that abortion is a gravely immoral sin objectively. I appreciate your being graphic. It is necessary. However, you are misunderstanding me. In our culture, abortion is considered alright, unfortunately. Obviously, her parents/priest/etc. must teach her and she must learn, or she will be very guilty of sin. However, what I mean above is a situation where a naive scared girl who had sex with a manipulative boyfriend blackmails her into silence and abortion. Surely she has some culpability, for which she must repent and after repentance the Lord’s Divine Mercy will wash away her sins. But still, I think that such a girl’s culpability is reduced, don’t you?

 

[st_lucy]

Yes, truly you are right that abortion is a gravely immoral sin objectively. I appreciate your being graphic. It is necessary. However, you are misunderstanding me. In our culture, abortion is considered alright, unfortunately. Obviously, her parents/priest/etc. must teach her and she must learn, or she will be very guilty of sin. However, what I mean above is a situation where a naive scared girl who had sex with a manipulative boyfriend blackmails her into silence and abortion. Surely she has some culpability, for which she must repent and after repentance the Lord’s Divine Mercy will wash away her sins. But still, I think that such a girl’s culpability is reduced, don’t you?

I think we must keep in mind that only God knows the girl’s culpability and only He can decide if it is reduced. But with this in mind we must also remember that all those women who have had abortions no matter their culpability, can repent, go to confession and be forgiven. God’s love is way beyond our own. Also we must not just relay on the parents/priest/etc. we should also be there to guide those who are miss guided, by our own actions and words if necessary.

 

[Jermosh]

Yes, truly you are right that abortion is a gravely immoral sin objectively. I appreciate your being graphic. It is necessary. However, you are misunderstanding me. In our culture, abortion is considered alright, unfortunately. Obviously, her parents/priest/etc. must teach her and she must learn, or she will be very guilty of sin. However, what I mean above is a situation where a naive scared girl who had sex with a manipulative boyfriend blackmails her into silence and abortion. Surely she has some culpability, for which she must repent and after repentance the Lord’s Divine Mercy will wash away her sins. But still, I think that such a girl’s culpability is reduced, don’t you?

The issue with culpability is that is really between God and the person, no one can state what a mortal sin truly is except for the person and God.

Society culpability is a different story though, the unfortunate thing is that our laws do not fully give citizenship to an unborn child in some cases, others it gives full rights. Its hypocritical in the end.

If you want a interesting story on history and judciary actions, read up on Susanna Cox, berkshistory.org/articles/cox.html

 

[Jermosh]

Yes, truly you are right that abortion is a gravely immoral sin objectively. I appreciate your being graphic. It is necessary. However, you are misunderstanding me. In our culture, abortion is considered alright, unfortunately. Obviously, her parents/priest/etc. must teach her and she must learn, or she will be very guilty of sin. However, what I mean above is a situation where a naive scared girl who had sex with a manipulative boyfriend blackmails her into silence and abortion. Surely she has some culpability, for which she must repent and after repentance the Lord’s Divine Mercy will wash away her sins. But still, I think that such a girl’s culpability is reduced, don’t you?

I think we must keep in mind that only God knows the girl’s culpability and only He can decide if it is reduced. But with this in mind we must also remember that all those women who have had abortions no matter their culpability, can repent, go to confession and be forgiven. God’s love is way beyond our own. Also we must not just relay on the parents/priest/etc. we should also be there to guide those who are miss guided, by our own actions and words if necessary.

Nice post.

 

[LindaSK]

In terms of culpability, don’t you also feel those in a position to make a difference, who turn their heads or fail to speak out for fear of public criticism, also have a share in God’s eyes?( I know we can’t speak for God.) I have heard Father Corapi, and even my own priest - I feel very fortunate - say that they can’t be worried about saying just what may make them popular, that they have a responsibility to speak out against abortion and birth control, for the sanctity of marriage, about those who should present themselves for communion, and other controversial issues. If they don’t, they share in the culpability, as does each of us, if we see something sinful and simply turn our backs. This may be somewhat off topic. But, those who propagate lies about the sanctity of life, and steer an individual to do something that should be contrary to one’s conscience, either by their active participation or by their inactivity, including the abortion of a baby of a woman who has been raped, should be held at least as accountable as the woman herself - and that is God’s call. As has been stated very well in earlier posts, God’s mercy is endless and is there for ALL, and only He can determine anyone’s degree of culpability, because, only He truly knows each heart. Matthew 25 tells us we all have a responsibility to each other. We all share in the guilt if we fail to ACT, to help those in difficult situations. Words are not enough. I know I pray to do better.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Yes, truly you are right that abortion is a gravely immoral sin objectively. I appreciate your being graphic. It is necessary. However, you are misunderstanding me. In our culture, abortion is considered alright, unfortunately. Obviously, her parents/priest/etc. must teach her and she must learn, or she will be very guilty of sin. However, what I mean above is a situation where a naive scared girl who had sex with a manipulative boyfriend blackmails her into silence and abortion. Surely she has some culpability, for which she must repent and after repentance the Lord’s Divine Mercy will wash away her sins. But still, I think that such a girl’s culpability is reduced, don’t you?

There are three condition that are necessary in order for a person to commit a mortal sin:

CCC 1857: …“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Three conditions must be met:

(1)The matter must be grave. Abortion is definitely a grave offense.

(2) The person having the abortion must know that it is a grave offense, with full knowledge.

(3) The person having the abortion must do so with deliberate consent.

If a person really doesn’t know that abortion is a grave offense and has the abortion, she has not committed a mortal sin because she doesn’t meet criterion #2.

If a person knows that abortion is a grave offense but is coerced under threat of serious physical harm (e.g. she has a gun to her head) or is dragged into a Planned Parenthood Clinic and strapped down against her will and is forced to have an abortion, she has not committed a mortal sin because she does not meet criterion #3.

In order to commit a mortal sin, she would have to know that abortion is a grave offense and go ahead and do it anyway with full consent.

So I believe her culpability is reduced, but I’m not any sort of expert on theology. Last week my priest told me that he thinks it’s very difficult for anyone to commit a mortal sin. I know that abortion is definitely a grave offense but it gets a bit fuzzy when it comes to culpability.

Also, I am only referring to mortal sin. Even if she hasn’t committed a mortal sin, she has procured an abortion and I believe is subject to excommunication.

I think we need someone who is an expert on theology to explain this.

And I think we all need to remember that as ExLuxLucis has said, “after repentance the Lord’s Divine mercy will wash away her sins.” God is a loving God. Only He really knows what is in our hearts.

 

[LindaSK]

LittleSoldier: *“Even if she hasn’t committed a mortal sin, she has procured an abortion and I believe is subject to excommunication.”
*
According to my priest, that is true, but the excommunication can be lifted by a priest with a good confession. It was discussed in RCIA.

 

[LittleSoldier]

In terms of culpability, don’t you also feel those in a position to make a difference, who turn their heads or fail to speak out for fear of public criticism, also have a share in God’s eyes?( I know we can’t speak for God.) I have heard Father Corapi, and even my own priest - I feel very fortunate - say that they can’t be worried about saying just what may make them popular, that they have a responsibility to speak out against abortion and birth control, for the sanctity of marriage, about those who should present themselves for communion, and other controversial issues. If they don’t, they share in the culpability, as does each of us, if we see something sinful and simply turn our backs. This may be somewhat off topic. But, those who propagate lies about the sanctity of life, and steer an individual to do something that should be contrary to one’s conscience, either by their active participation or by their inactivity, including the abortion of a baby of a woman who has been raped, should be held at least as accountable as the woman herself - and that is God’s call. As has been stated very well in earlier posts, God’s mercy is endless and is there for ALL, and only He can determine anyone’s degree of culpability, because, only He truly knows each heart. Matthew 25 tells us we all have a responsibility to each other. We all share in the guilt if we fail to ACT, to help those in difficult situations. Words are not enough. I know I pray to do better.

This is what I’ve found in the CCC:

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth .

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish .

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272** Formal co-operation in an abortion constitutes a grave offence.** The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. 'A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae by the very commission of the offence, and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law . The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
(emphasis mine)

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/catechismonabortion.htm

 

[mdifrancesco]

They did not choose to become pregnant, they are just innocent victims…Is it okay for a rapped girl to have an abortion?

I’m a guy, so I would never put myself in the position to say “I understand”, and what’s been said according to the word of God stands true, however, if I may add a possibility of a ray of light in this darkness for those women strong enough to follow through with birthing a child in this circumstance…
There was a man in the Bible named Jeptha. He was the son of a prostitute. He was despised and outcast from his family, yet he turned out to be one of the greatest judges in Israel’s history…

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I have already provided the link. usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/ecfact.shtml

That said, all prohibitions on any form of ABC is only in the context of marriage, every CCC point, papal bull or magisterium speaks in the context of a marriage.

Perhaps I misunderstood, the link you provided is for the following: Fact Sheet: Emergency Contraception and Treatment of Victims of Sexual Assault.
This does not mean that the Church approves the use of emergency BC for anyone who is not married. They were simply defining their position on whether they can provide emergency BC in the case of rape.

The Church has only spoken about contraception within a marriage because, the assumption is that no one is having sex outside of marriage. It would be pointless to state if/when it’s ok to use contraception outside of marriage when
a) it’s never ok to use, and
b) you shouldn’t be involved in a sexual relationship anyway.

Your comment reminds me of a preacher who said that because the bible doesn’t say that women can’t get an abortion, it must be ok.

Are you thinking that it should be ok for someone who had sex outside of marriage to use and emergency contraceptive, because it is supposed to prevent implantation? It’s in important point and I appreciate the discussion. Let me know if I’m misunderstanding something here, ok?