Can raped girls abort?

[Doc_Keele]

Apryl - I have the credentials, don’t worry yourself
Rarity is irrelevant to my purposes and to the argument.
For the person involved it’s extremely important, since they only have one life.
Yes, you’re right that in difficult situations you should seek advice. And if the church would make sensible exceptions for exceptional circumstances, I would be happy as Larry. Honestly.
It wasn’t myself that directed the topic down this alley, incidentally.

 

[Apryl]

Apryl - I have the credentials, don’t worry yourself
Rarity is irrelevant to my purposes and to the argument.
For the person involved it’s extremely important, since they only have one life.
Yes, you’re right that in difficult situations you should seek advice. And if the church would make sensible exceptions for exceptional circumstances, I would be happy as Larry. Honestly.
It wasn’t myself that directed the topic down this alley, incidentally.

I worry about me. It’s what I do. What I won’t do is worry about you. Whether or not you have credentials.

For the person for whom this rare occurence is an issue, let’s leave the discussion of that to them. Let those people bring that up.

It is a rare herring. Do you know what a red herring is? It’s what makes this thread annoying and you won’t be able to make some very valid points in favor of your argument because of the time you spend typing on that red herring and makes this thread more likely to be closed before you get to make your point.

If you want to spit in the wind and yell into a fan, go for it. It was a suggestion in an effort to allow both sides of the argument to make points which make sense and don’t waste time.

And no one is talking about who did the directing. I was commenting on your post, specifically, no matter the reason for the comment.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Err, yes, of course I know what a red herring Apryl…
take a chill pill:thumbsup:

 

[Apryl]

Err, yes, of course I know what a red herring Apryl…
take a chill pill:thumbsup:

Um… is that medical advice?

What exactly is your stance on the idea of a raped girl getting an abortion? Do you think it’s the right thing to do?

Do you think that because a woman is raped, she should be allowed to have an abortion?

Do you believe that a child that is the result of a rape is exempt from the love of God, and when we are told to love one another, and to keep no Gods before Him, we can then play God?

I went to a High School with people who did in conversation what you were trying to do in these forums. Let’s keep this discussion on point. How about we share opinions and some facts, and even become a bit better for the time and efforts.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Hmm, I don’t like the implication that I’m “up to something”, especially not being compared to schoolchildren

I think it should be up to the woman in cases of rape personally.

 

[Apryl]

Hmm, I don’t like the implication that I’m “up to something”, especially not being compared to schoolchildren

I think it should be up to the woman in cases of rape personally.

Ok, let’s forget implications and inferences. I wasn’t exactly comparing you to school chidren (I was one when I was with them, so they were my contemporaries and not ‘schoolchildren’ to me)

You’re doing it again, though: Your point - you spend lots of time on it. Your comments are not related to our discussion, but you are a part of the discussion.

Your comments are, at best, a distraction.

The question was direct. What do YOU think is right or wrong? Rather than the ‘wiggle’ of ‘it’s up to the woman in cases of rape’.

Ok: let’s do this YOUR way.

Let’s say it’s up to women in the cases of rape.

Why is it up to women in the cases of rape? What makes rape a situation women are allowed, in YOUR OPINION, to play god?

 

[jmcrae]

Hmm, I don’t like the implication that I’m “up to something”, especially not being compared to schoolchildren

I think it should be up to the woman in cases of rape personally.

Why isn’t it up to the personal conscience of the rapist, whether he should rape her, or not, and she should just accept it and get over it, and be happy that she gets to go to Heaven if she dies of her injuries? Just as the unborn child is just supposed to accept and get over that her mother is following conscience to destroy her “for a good reason” and she should just be happy that she gets to go to Heaven after dying of her injuries.

 

[LindaSK]

Can raped girls abort?

Father Mitch Pacwa answered this question very well on ‘Threshold of Hope.’

His first point was, as has been stated numerous times here, that you wouldn’t kill the rapist who was found to be guilty. Why would you kill a baby who is completely innocent? He also stated that law would forbid you to dismember the rapist. How can you justify, then, doing it to an innocent baby?

His second point was addressed to those who say they have no right to be concerned with the ‘choice’ of someone else. He compared it to car theft. We should only be concerned if it is our car that has been stolen, never mind anyone else’s - turning your head, or closing your eyes if a crime or sin doesn’t specifically concern us? The law protects all cars no matter whose they are. It should do the same for every living being.

If a rapist has rights, why shouldn’t an unborn child be equally protected? A baby in the womb is not a philosophy. A baby in the womb is a living human being.

 

[Rence]

I think it should be up to the woman in cases of rape personally.

But the fact is, it is up to the woman.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Can raped girls abort?

Father Mitch Pacwa answered this question very well on ‘Threshold of Hope.’

His first point was, as has been stated numerous times here, that you wouldn’t kill the rapist who was found to be guilty. Why would you kill a baby who is completely innocent? He also stated that law would forbid you to dismember the rapist. How can you justify, then, doing it to an innocent baby?

His second point was addressed to those who say they have no right to be concerned with the ‘choice’ of someone else. He compared it to car theft. We should only be concerned if it is our car that has been stolen, never mind anyone else’s - turning your head, or closing your eyes if a crime or sin doesn’t specifically concern us? The law protects all cars no matter whose they are. It should do the same for every living being.

If a rapist has rights, why shouldn’t an unborn child be equally protected? A baby in the womb is not a philosophy. A baby in the womb is a living human being.

you wouldn’t kill the rapist who was found to be guilty. Why would you kill a baby who is completely innocent?
He also stated that law would forbid you to dismember the rapist. How can you justify, then, doing it to an innocent baby?
But you would forcibly remove the rapist from inside the woman’s body if you caught him in the act, wouldn’t you?
You wouldn’t allow him to stay in her and finish his business; he doesn’t have that right.
So why shouldn’t the fertilized egg be removed; why should it have the right to remain in her body?
You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.
You’re not dismembering anything because fertilized eggs don’t have arms or legs.

 

[davidv]

**you wouldn’t kill the rapist who was found to be guilty. Why would you kill a baby who is completely innocent? **
He also stated that law would forbid you to dismember the rapist. How can you justify, then, doing it to an innocent baby?
But you would forcibly remove the rapist from inside the woman’s body if you caught him in the act, wouldn’t you?
You wouldn’t allow him to stay in her and finish his business; he doesn’t have that right.
So why shouldn’t the fertilized egg be removed; why should it have the right to remain in her body?

Because it is not an intruder. The baby is the natural consequence of sexual intercourse, whether consensual or not.

You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.
You’re not dismembering anything because fertilized eggs don’t have arms or legs.

If the egg is fertilized, it is a separate being, no matter how dependent. And in the eyes of God is a person with intrinsic value.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.

Does not compute. A fertilized egg is a baby. In fact, you’re a fertilized egg. So are we all.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Apryl]

But you would forcibly remove the rapist from inside the woman’s body if you caught him in the act, wouldn’t you?

But the rapist did the raping. So, yes: forcibly remove the rapist.

And just think: if you forcibly remove the rapist, that doesn’t kill the rapist! Forcibly removing the baby, the creation that is an innocent part of the mother, would kill the baby.

You wouldn’t allow him to stay in her and finish his business; he doesn’t have that right.
So why shouldn’t the fertilized egg be removed; why should it have the right to remain in her body?

Because from the moment of the baby’s conception (which WE don’t know precisely) that baby is her child. Her offspring. A part of her growing on its own as ain individual person.

It has the right to life. Just like you and I do.

That’s ‘why’

You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.
You’re not dismembering anything because fertilized eggs don’t have arms or legs.

Ok… I was thinking of the whole ‘potayto potahto’ thing,… but that doesn’t even fit this. That comment, I can only respond with a ‘are you nuts???’, since it IS killing the child. You are killing the child by not allowing the egg to remain in her body.

Now, if you were saying that you would remove the egg from her body, have it implanted in some other woman until it reaches maturity… yeah, then we could say we’re just removing the egg.

I repeat: It’s STILL a human life. No matter how it got to be. As long as we are the children of God, we can not play god just because of the behavior of another person.

 

[kage_ar]

So why shouldn’t the fertilized egg be removed; why should it have the right to remain in her body?
You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.
You’re not dismembering anything because fertilized eggs don’t have arms or legs.

You are Catholic. Life begins at conception, as a Catholic, this is what we believe, what we teach and what we LIVE.

 

[Rence]

you wouldn’t kill the rapist who was found to be guilty. Why would you kill a baby who is completely innocent?
He also stated that law would forbid you to dismember the rapist. How can you justify, then, doing it to an innocent baby?
But you would forcibly remove the rapist from inside the woman’s body if you caught him in the act, wouldn’t you?
You wouldn’t allow him to stay in her and finish his business; he doesn’t have that right.
So why shouldn’t the fertilized egg be removed; why should it have the right to remain in her body?
You’re not killing a baby; you’re refusing to allow a fertilized egg to remain in her body.
You’re not dismembering anything because fertilized eggs don’t have arms or legs.

I can completely understand that perspective on the part of non-Catholics and non-practicing Catholics. It’s only natural to try and protect onesself from further harm. In fact, it’s a difficult situation even for Catholics, or it wouldn’t be such a controversial issue.

The CC teaches that there is a soul involved, that’s why some Catholics say the fetus trumps the woman. When exactly a soul is involved is debateable even amoung Church scholars, so of course it would be a difficult concept for those Catholics who are not scholars.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Ok… I was thinking of the whole ‘potayto potahto’ thing,… but that doesn’t even fit this. That comment, I can only respond with a ‘are you nuts???’, since it IS killing the child. You are killing the child by not allowing the egg to remain in her body.

I can only respond with a 'are you nuts???:
No, I’m not nuts. Everyone here who is defending the rapist is nuts!
You think it’s perfectly fine for rapists to impregnate whomever they please
and then you punish their victims by forcing them to carry the rapist’s child.
You don’t give a thought to the damage you’re doing to that victim by
forcing her to be bonded to her rapist for life. I don’t know how anyone
can call themselves Catholic and be so completely lacking in compassion.
You think this is all just logic games! Meanwhile women are lying in
emergency rooms with broken bones, stab wounds, and torn up vaginas;
women who will wake up screaming in terror every night and spend the
rest of their lives with PTSD. And you just cavalierly say, “But the egg
the rapist fertilized is more important that anything in the world.”
Maybe you should be forced to see these women in the ER, see
their terror, see their ripped vaginas. But of course, you wouldn’t
care; all you care about is some abstract principle. This is what makes
it so hard for me to be a Catholic: all the evil people who use
Catholicism as an excuse for sadism. I have to keep reminding myself
that you are not the majority of Catholics. You just yell the loudest.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Ok, let’s forget implications and inferences. I wasn’t exactly comparing you to school chidren (I was one when I was with them, so they were my contemporaries and not ‘schoolchildren’ to me)

You’re doing it again, though: Your point - you spend lots of time on it. Your comments are not related to our discussion, but you are a part of the discussion.

Your comments are, at best, a distraction.

The question was direct. What do YOU think is right or wrong? Rather than the ‘wiggle’ of ‘it’s up to the woman in cases of rape’.

Ok: let’s do this YOUR way.

Let’s say it’s up to women in the cases of rape.

Why is it up to women in the cases of rape? What makes rape a situation women are allowed, in YOUR OPINION, to play god?

For someone who complains about distracting comments, you post an awful lot of extraneous material. And you’re doing it again. I don’t ike your tone,

 

[LindaSK]

I can only respond with a 'are you nuts???:
No, I’m not nuts. Everyone here who is defending the rapist is nuts!
You think it’s perfectly fine for rapists to impregnate whomever they please
and then you punish their victims by forcing them to carry the rapist’s child.
You don’t give a thought to the damage you’re doing to that victim by
forcing her to be bonded to her rapist for life. I don’t know how anyone
can call themselves Catholic and be so completely lacking in compassion.
You think this is all just logic games! Meanwhile women are lying in
emergency rooms with broken bones, stab wounds, and torn up vaginas;
women who will wake up screaming in terror every night and spend the
rest of their lives with PTSD. And you just cavalierly say, “But the egg
the rapist fertilized is more important that anything in the world.”
Maybe you should be forced to see these women in the ER, see
their terror, see their ripped vaginas. But of course, you wouldn’t
care; all you care about is some abstract principle. This is what makes
it so hard for me to be a Catholic: all the evil people who use
Catholicism as an excuse for sadism. I have to keep reminding myself
that you are not the majority of Catholics. You just yell the loudest.

But of course, you wouldn’t care; all you care about is some abstract principle.

I would call that an unfair judgment. You see, I care about both the woman and the baby. There is nothing abstract about either. If a child is conceived, there are two lives to consider. Both are equally precious.

You comment on PTSD. You would further add to that the killing of an innocent baby? I do not see where that can be helpful. Will that undo the crime that has been committed? Or compound it? Evil begets evil. The child can be put up for adoption, thus ending a lifelong tie. If she kills the child, that memory won’t last a lifetime? Which lifetime memory would you rather have - that you saved a life, or that you took one? There is nothing abstract about that.

 

[Apryl]

No, I’m not nuts. Everyone here who is defending the rapist is nuts!

Who is defending the rapist? Who has defended the rapist?

You think it’s perfectly fine for rapists to impregnate whomever they please and then you punish their victims by forcing them to carry the rapist’s child.

WHO thinks it’s fine for rapists to impregnate any one? And no one forces you to put your left foot down when normal? The ‘force’ comes in when you move from the natural chain of events. Naturally: a woman gets pregnant, and some 40 weeks later, there about, a baby is born.

You don’t give a thought to the damage you’re doing to that victim by forcing her to be bonded to her rapist for life.

Just so you’ll know: You can’t know what I, or any one else, thinks.

They aren’t bonded to any rapist for life; they are, however, bonded to their child.

If you think that every woman who has a child is bonded to the father, talk to some of the women who are trying to find the father of their children.

I don’t know how anyone can call themselves Catholic and be so completely lacking in compassion.

Hi. Allow me to introduce myself. I’m Apryl. I’m Catholic. Oh, wait: I’m not lacking in compassion. I would rather not main and kill an innocent child who is safely in the womb of his mother in some vain effort to react to a person who may have attacked them days, weeks, before they realize they are pregnant… so no real connection of A to B (in every case). I am not lacking compassion because I would rather prevent a woman from dealing witih the anguish of knowing she’s knowingly killed her child, for whatever reason.

You think this is all just logic games! Meanwhile women are lying in emergency rooms with broken bones, stab wounds, and torn up vaginas; women who will wake up screaming in terror every night and spend the
rest of their lives with PTSD. And you just cavalierly say, “But the egg the rapist fertilized is more important that anything in the world.”

Not cavalier… not here. While that is horrible and traumatic, and something I wish I could do away with for any and every woman (or man) who has to go through that, I don’t hesitate to say, ‘you got it right that the child is the most important thing in the world.’

Maybe you should be forced to see these women in the ER, see their terror, see their ripped vaginas. But of course, you wouldn’t
care; all you care about is some abstract principle. This is what makes
it so hard for me to be a Catholic: all the evil people who use Catholicism as an excuse for sadism.

Hold up… just a few lines ago, you didn’t know of any Catholic who was so lacking of compassion…now this is the excuse you have for not being Catholic… I’m so confused.

I have to keep reminding myself
that you are not the majority of Catholics. You just yell the loudest.

I don’t know… you have a strange impression. You give me this almost comical vision of a bunch of women (and men) wearing chapel veils rubbing their hands and standing around dark alleys whispering at creepy dirty men to get them to rape innocent women and then these people holding down the women to make sure they get pregnant and then paying off the rapists.

Gimme a break!

A baby is a baby. No matter how it got to be. Period. End of discussion. Rapists are rapists. and they rape people and they should be punished more severely than is legally allowed. What I have in mind for rapists wouldn’t be permitted because of the Geneva Convention!

But back to the situation at hand…

Who should Catholics be more compassionate towards? The innocent baby, or the angered, empassioned person who may, in a moment of pain, want to lash out at another, and want to hurt those OTHER than the one who hurt her?

I still go back to:

having an abortion after rape

1. 
   *]doesn’t un-rape the mother
   *]doesn’t cause an ounce of pain to the rapist
   *]can, and usually does, cause physical harm to the mother
   *]can, and usually does, cause mental anguish to the mother
   *]causes the end of a human life
   *]Is something that so many of us, esp since the Roe v Wade decision, are buffering up to as justified
   *]Is still a human life.
   
   While you are so empassioned of what happens to punish the rapist, what are you proposing we do TO THE RAPIST? Why are you grabbing the innocent little, didn’t hurt a fly and has a hopeful life ahead of them, and putting an end to it because of your desire to punish rapists… probably not even as severely as I would want them punished.
   
   But you’re not only tossing out the baby with the bathwater, but you’re punishing the wrong one.
   
   If that keeps you from being Catholic, or getting with the Catholic program, I can keep praying for you. I hope you reconsider your stance.

 

[Apryl]

For someone who complains about distracting comments, you post an awful lot of extraneous material. And you’re doing it again. I don’t ike your tone,

You obviously also don’t like answering my questions.

If you were the first with an issue with my tone, it may have been noteworthy.