D
Doc_Keele
Guest
No, I recognize the tricks of argument, that’s all.
I’m not changing that for you or anyone, it’s just sound argument.
Like it or lump it:thumbsup:
- Status
I’m not changing that for you or anyone, it’s just sound argument.
Like it or lump it:thumbsup:
S
SugarMagnolia
Guest
:dts:
K
kage_ar
Guest
The mother’s lack of consent does not make the baby expendable.
K
kage_ar
Guest
D
Doc_Keele
Guest
Oh dear
Please don’t do anything embarrassing on my account, kage ar.
If you don’t have anything constructive and/or charitable to say, maybe it’ll be best not to say anything? I certainly won’t respond to any other comments in a similar vein. I want to keep my dignity.
A
Apryl
Guest
SugarMagnolia responded to
Yeah… what is it about being the victim of the crime at the hands of one person do to make it ok to commit a horrible, barbaric act on another?
I’m waiting…
Yeah… what is it about being the victim of the crime at the hands of one person do to make it ok to commit a horrible, barbaric act on another?
I’m waiting…
K
kage_ar
Guest
So, back to the actual conversation…
Would like to know if those who support abortion would feel that those who are victims of other sinful crimes are given a pass to abort.
For example, if someone comes in and robs me at knifepoint I would be traumatized. Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because I was robbed?
Would like to know if those who support abortion would feel that those who are victims of other sinful crimes are given a pass to abort.
For example, if someone comes in and robs me at knifepoint I would be traumatized. Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because I was robbed?
A
Apryl
Guest
… in that same vein:
What about if I am madly in love with my husband, and then after I learn I’m pregnant, find out he’s been having an affair with my old best friend from High School.
Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because my husband cheated?
What about if my husband told me that he was the benificiary of a lump sum payment upon the death of his aunt, Then I found out later that his aunt left him $14.23.
Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because we aren’t as wealthy as I thought?
What about if I have three sons and I learn I’m pregnant, only to find out that I’m not pregnant with the girl I was hoping for, but yet another boy.
Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because it’s the wrong sex?
What about if I had one of those nights of make-up-sex with my husband and we decide in the morning that it’s not working. A few days later, I find out that I’m pregnant.
Would it be justifiable for me to abort my child because I am not in a stable marriage?
I would LOVE to know what other situations make it ok to kill the child just because it’s not the child you want…
E
EmeraldWings
Guest
unfortunately there are not many places where i live like that, but the main reason for that is because there are no abortion clinics in my area at all,Do you volunteer with any sort of organizations to help survivors, post abortion counseling, or things of that nature? You would probably be good at counseling or something of that nature. Not to derail or anything like that. I was just curious. Thanks for clarifying, and again, I’m sorry for my snippy-ness.
although there is a help center very close to here that i help out with, who’s main purpose is helping mothers who can’t afford to raise their baby, such as woman who’s husbands or boyfriends left them, or woman who would otherwise get an abortion(they would travel to get one), and basically you can just donate money or clothes or other baby necessities…other then that there’s not much around here(very small city), except the soup kitchen, but that’s an entirely different subject
well, it’s ok anyways, no need to apologize, i should be more understanding since i know how i use to take offense at other peoples posts all the time x,x so it’s ok,
alright, take care…i’m off to make a cake.
R
Rence
Guest
Comparing getting pregnant as a result of rape to situations that involve consensual sex IMOHO is very insensitive towards the woman being raped. It makes light of her pain, and puts the responsibility of being pregnant on her. It tells her that she’s not important at all, and that her being pregnant by force of rape is inconsequential and therefore comparable to all the other senarios listed in the previous few posts that were totally consensual. Which it’s not. Again, she didn’t consent. Her pain is very real. The terror she feels and the lack of control she feels is very real. The tone of the previous posts is very sarcastic and very unkind towards a victim of rape. And I pray some of you find it in your hearts to show some compassion and kindness towards a rape victim. She needs you very much. She needs to feel loved and cared for, not victimized by everyone around her who doesn’t want to understand or even acknowledge her pain.
Even in most governments where rape is illegal, a woman is allowed EC and abortion in the case of rape. That sets it aside as a particular situation that deserves special treatment.
The only way to answer the last few pages of posts for me is to say: In cases of rape, a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to be preganant because she didn’t consent to the rape, she did not consent to being pregnant, and she does not consent to being further violated and abused. She has the right to protect herself. Yes, there are some women who would regard a pregnancy after a rape to be a further violation and abuse. On the other hand, there are women who would regard pregnancy after a rape as a blessing. I personally would consider it the worst case senario. For her own health and welfare, that would be her choice. And yes, she is most important. To me. There really isn’t a reason to ask about whether this or that is more imporant, I’m saying it here: The woman victimized by rape is the most important to me.
I’m not even going to answer about the other senarios because they don’t fit here, they’re irrelevant to the topic, and from how they come across to me when read are meanspirited and not worthy of an answer.
But I will say, if you take the time to reread the last few pages of post, there really should be no reason at all to ask why I am pro-choice in the case of rape. And it’s not likely to change anytime soon. The overall tone of the posts is the reason why I will fight for women’s freedom and autonomy and the right to choose for herself in the case of rape. Because I promise, no one will make that choice FOR me. I will make that choice for me. No matter what I choose, it will be my choice.
Even in most governments where rape is illegal, a woman is allowed EC and abortion in the case of rape. That sets it aside as a particular situation that deserves special treatment.
The only way to answer the last few pages of posts for me is to say: In cases of rape, a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to be preganant because she didn’t consent to the rape, she did not consent to being pregnant, and she does not consent to being further violated and abused. She has the right to protect herself. Yes, there are some women who would regard a pregnancy after a rape to be a further violation and abuse. On the other hand, there are women who would regard pregnancy after a rape as a blessing. I personally would consider it the worst case senario. For her own health and welfare, that would be her choice. And yes, she is most important. To me. There really isn’t a reason to ask about whether this or that is more imporant, I’m saying it here: The woman victimized by rape is the most important to me.
I’m not even going to answer about the other senarios because they don’t fit here, they’re irrelevant to the topic, and from how they come across to me when read are meanspirited and not worthy of an answer.
But I will say, if you take the time to reread the last few pages of post, there really should be no reason at all to ask why I am pro-choice in the case of rape. And it’s not likely to change anytime soon. The overall tone of the posts is the reason why I will fight for women’s freedom and autonomy and the right to choose for herself in the case of rape. Because I promise, no one will make that choice FOR me. I will make that choice for me. No matter what I choose, it will be my choice.
W
wanner47
Guest
Violated and abused by whom?
So if I was raped, and I considered it most important to my health and welfare to kill my existing children because the dealing with my trauma and caring for them was too much to handle, you would support me in that?
And that “choice” is to kill an innocent human being who is not responsible in any way, shape, or form for the crime committed or the circumstances of its conception.
It’s a deplorable “choice.” NO ONE should have the “choice” to kill an innocent human being.
K
kage_ar
Guest
You do realize that you are knowingly putting yourself outside of communion with the Church by supporting abortion?
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
What it comes down to is that in this country especially, we have made a new ‘god’ and that god is ‘choice’.
We feel that we absolutely must exert ‘control over our lives, our bodies’ and that no body --not even God–has a ‘right’ to control us in any way. We forget that (even if we are not ‘theists’ and refuse to believe this) we are not our own masters.
I’m a woman. I’ve been raped and even missed a period so it is entirely possible that I suffered an early miscarriage. Being in college at the time (mid 1970s) my friends would have been entirely supportive of my having an abortion and indeed there were a few girls who were spoken of as having ‘had’ one and who certainly were not looked down on (and this I might add was a Catholic college). But I would not have done so. . .no, not even with having to leave college (and facing loan paybacks). . .not even with people being shocked and disapproving. . .not even with the one who raped me claiming it was no rape and having virtually everybody I knew believe him and knowing had I pursued the issue I would have been laughed out of court. . .not even with having to face living in section 8 housing, or welfare, and having fingers pointed at me and my child, always ‘judged’ as being ‘trailer trash’, having to scrimp and save and having to ‘deny’ my child things because I just couldn’t afford them.
Because no matter how much that man had wronged me. . .had I been pregnant, the child would have been totally innocent.
Because no matter how much having an ‘unwanted pregnancy’ would have meant I’d have to ‘change’ my life. . .how I’d have had to walk away from college, from ‘dreams’ of the job that I would have to put on hold and maybe **never ** be able to have. . .how I’d have to own ‘fewer’ things, how I’d have to be ‘under’ the review of people who would make judgments about me and my life. . and often be wrong, hurtful and hateful. . ,
NONE of those things. . .not one. . .not my own ‘feelings’, not any ‘loss’ of material good or ‘quality of life’–**none of those is worth more than a child’s **life.
My ‘career’, my ‘things’, even my ‘dignity and self worth’ are **not worth more than a child’s life.
**My **OWN **life is not worth more than a child’s life. God did not make some of us people to be worth ‘more’ than other people, did He? So why do we think that some of us are more worthwhile than others?
We feel that we absolutely must exert ‘control over our lives, our bodies’ and that no body --not even God–has a ‘right’ to control us in any way. We forget that (even if we are not ‘theists’ and refuse to believe this) we are not our own masters.
I’m a woman. I’ve been raped and even missed a period so it is entirely possible that I suffered an early miscarriage. Being in college at the time (mid 1970s) my friends would have been entirely supportive of my having an abortion and indeed there were a few girls who were spoken of as having ‘had’ one and who certainly were not looked down on (and this I might add was a Catholic college). But I would not have done so. . .no, not even with having to leave college (and facing loan paybacks). . .not even with people being shocked and disapproving. . .not even with the one who raped me claiming it was no rape and having virtually everybody I knew believe him and knowing had I pursued the issue I would have been laughed out of court. . .not even with having to face living in section 8 housing, or welfare, and having fingers pointed at me and my child, always ‘judged’ as being ‘trailer trash’, having to scrimp and save and having to ‘deny’ my child things because I just couldn’t afford them.
Because no matter how much that man had wronged me. . .had I been pregnant, the child would have been totally innocent.
Because no matter how much having an ‘unwanted pregnancy’ would have meant I’d have to ‘change’ my life. . .how I’d have had to walk away from college, from ‘dreams’ of the job that I would have to put on hold and maybe **never ** be able to have. . .how I’d have to own ‘fewer’ things, how I’d have to be ‘under’ the review of people who would make judgments about me and my life. . and often be wrong, hurtful and hateful. . ,
NONE of those things. . .not one. . .not my own ‘feelings’, not any ‘loss’ of material good or ‘quality of life’–**none of those is worth more than a child’s **life.
My ‘career’, my ‘things’, even my ‘dignity and self worth’ are **not worth more than a child’s life.
**My **OWN **life is not worth more than a child’s life. God did not make some of us people to be worth ‘more’ than other people, did He? So why do we think that some of us are more worthwhile than others?
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
***Six posts have been pruned from this thread for being essentially off topic and lacking in charity.
Members are reminded to remain on topic and maintain the highest levels of charity or expect moderator intervention.
If there are questions, please review this link*** and insure that all future posts comply.
***Six posts have been pruned from this thread for being essentially off topic and lacking in charity.
Members are reminded to remain on topic and maintain the highest levels of charity or expect moderator intervention.
If there are questions, please review this link*** and insure that all future posts comply.
R
Rence
Guest
Originally Posted by Rence
The only way to answer the last few pages of posts for me is to say: In cases of rape, a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to be preganant because she didn’t consent to the rape, she did not consent to being pregnant, and she does not consent to being further violated and abused.
The only way to answer the last few pages of posts for me is to say: In cases of rape, a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to be preganant because she didn’t consent to the rape, she did not consent to being pregnant, and she does not consent to being further violated and abused.
Violated and abused by whom?
**Violated and abused by those who would force their religious views on her. Not everyone is Cathlolic, not everyone is Christian. And not everyone, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, shares your values and beliefs. That’s a fact of life. Which is the reason why abortion is legal in some places, and further where illegal, there are exceptions for special cases such as rape. It is your religious opininon, stick to it, I support your right to follow your religion and your conscience. But know that others should have the right to stick to theirs. And they do actually…
In fact, I was born and raised Catholic, and I find it very difficult to accept that some Catholics believe it is immoral for a rape victim to protect herself from further harm by taking EC in the emergency room. I know no other Catholics IRL that would insist a rape victim not protect herself. And I know no priest who would not absolve a rape victim who took EC in the ER. The fact that this is division within the Church regarding this matter seaks for itself. **
So if I was raped, and I considered it most important to my health and welfare to kill my existing children because the dealing with my trauma and caring for them was too much to handle, you would support me in that?
No. I would not. Why are you bringing existing children into the debate? It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and is irrevelent anyway. Your present children have nothing to do with a rape. Yes, the pregnancy resulting from a rape DOES have to do with the rape. You cannot deny that fact because it is a direct result of the rape. And because of that, I would support your decision to take EC. In fact, I’d support you no matter what you chose, though I would remind you of the laws of the Church and give you all your options. But in the end, it would be YOUR choice to make. You will also own the consequences, but you have the right to make your own choice.
And that “choice” is to kill an innocent human being who is not responsible in any way, shape, or form for the crime committed or the circumstances of its conception.
**Whether or not an unborn is an innocent human being is again, a matter of opinion, whether you concede to it or not. To some, it is a conglomeration of cells that can’t be seen with the unaided eye (in the case of taking EC in the ER), to others, it is a mass of cells. The medical community doesn’t even recognize a pregnancy until HCG levels are indicated in test results, which is 7-10 days after conception when implantation occurs. Clearly, even Church scholars don’t even know when a soul actually enters into a pregnancy. What is it before a soul enters into that mass of cells? Some people don’t even believe in souls. Again, these are religious teachings and those who do not practice the faith should not be forced to comply with it’s teachings. Being Catholic or Chistian is a choice. **
It’s a deplorable “choice.” NO ONE should have the “choice” to kill an innocent human being.
**I understand what your position is, and I understand why, and I defend your right to your opinion. If ever, God forbid, you were raped, you absolutely should do as your conscience dictates and refuse to take EC without the proper tests and deal with the consequences of that rape. I’m sure that you would deal with it very well. Judging by your previous posts, I would think (you can correct me if I’m wrong) that you would consider the pregnacy a blessing in a bad situation and would welcome that pregnancy into your family. It would be detrimental to your health in mind, body and spirit, for you to do otherwise because you feel so strongly about it. I respect that choice and would fight just as hard for you to be able to make that choice. But I also understand that some women do not share your values, and they have their rights too. **
K
kage_ar
Guest
The Church is crystal clear that life begins at conception.
The Church is crystal clear (in the USCCB document that you yourself quoted on this forum) that EC can only be given if ovulation has not occurred.
Do you reject the Church teachings on these two topics, yes or no?
W
wanner47
Guest
On the contrary, Rence. A child conceived from rape EXISTS ALSO, from the moment of their conception. It is already an existing child, and it would be as wrong to kill that child as it would be to kill my 5-year-old or my 2-year-old because I was too traumatized to care for them.
I “impose my choices” on people every day; or rather, society does. A victim can’t kill her rapist. A wife can’t kill the husband who abuses her (save in extreme cases of self-defense, and even then she must go through due process of law). A terrified teenage mother who has just given birth in her dorm room can’t smother the newborn and throw it in the dumpster. All these “choices” available to traumatized abuse victims are illegal. I believe the “choice” to kill an innocent child should be illegal as well.
M
mary1173
Guest
Not in the eyes of God. The girl may have been raped, but the soul of the unborn child is in her womb awaiting its chance to do God’s will. It is not upon the unborn child that the fault lies, but in the rapist who inflicted the pain upon the mother of the unborn child… The child is blessed in that God created him/her. And has placed a soul into him/her. The duty of the mother lies in bringing forth that child in birth, so that that child may be baptized into the faith, live out God’s plan for their life and to obtain everlasting life with God in heaven at the end of that child’s life here on earth.
Abortion is murder in the eyes of the Catholic church. It is never o.k. to kill.
R
Rence
Guest
You have the right to your opinion, just like anyone else. As it should be…
O
OceanMist
Guest
Ok, so what you’re saying is everyone has the right to their own opinnion. Which means, you believe that terrorists have the right to the opinion that it is ok to kill hundreds, even thousands, of innocent people because they believe they are doing something good? Or that it is ok for someone to have the opinion that it’s ok to kill the people who hurt them as a way of revenge?
Just because someone has the right to having a certain opinion, that does not make that opinion right, or just.
There are living people out there who have survived abortions. There are women out there who Hate the abortion industry because they had a child who was the result of rape. What about the kids themselves? What must they think? “If I was concieved in someone else and they aborted me, then I wouldn’t be here now…” I know there is one person, I forget her name, who tells people the story of how her mother tried to get an abortion, but in the end couldn’t due to bad weather and by the time she could it was too late to have an abortion. People tell her, “I feel so sorry for all the trouble your mother went through only not to be able to have the abortion.” How heartless can they be? There’s a living person in front of them and they tell them how horrible it was for her mom not to be able to make the choice to have killed that person a long, long time ago.
- Status