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Doc_Keele
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Which type of moral relativism do you mean?
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SugarMagnolia
Guest
**Apryl **and kage_ar, don’t quit your day jobs yet. I still haven’t figured out the question. Grammatically, I don’t know what you’re asking.
What I was saying–and this is a fact–is that every woman who has a surgical abortion is given a prescription for antibiotics to prevent any possibility of infection. I said this because Apryl suggested that abortion could result in infection. Furthermore, when women give birth to babies they also run the risk of infection. So if you wouldn’t have an abortion for fear of infection, then you also shouldn’t give birth for fear of infection.
What any of this has to do with men I still haven’t got a clue?
What I was saying–and this is a fact–is that every woman who has a surgical abortion is given a prescription for antibiotics to prevent any possibility of infection. I said this because Apryl suggested that abortion could result in infection. Furthermore, when women give birth to babies they also run the risk of infection. So if you wouldn’t have an abortion for fear of infection, then you also shouldn’t give birth for fear of infection.
What any of this has to do with men I still haven’t got a clue?
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o_mlly
Guest
Since you say you don’t know and use the passive voice to indicate that a decision exists, would you kindly add the prepositional “by” phrase so we can know who decides for you when humanity occurs?
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Apryl
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Out of curiosity… who is this directed to?
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kage_ar
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Do you have some documentation of this? State regulations?
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Apryl
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This is PRECISELY my point!
What does getting an abortion have to do with the men?
(Sheesh… she got it better than I could have explained it!)
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Doc_Keele
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CharlemagneOut of curiosity… who is this directed to?
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Doc_Keele
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Hmmm I haven’t said that anyone has decided for me when humanity occurs - considering that I don’t hold the position that humanity “occurs” at birth.
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SugarMagnolia
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I don’t work in the medical field, so I don’t know how to go about proving this. But lest you regard that as a cop out, I don’t know how to prove the sky is blue either. It’s just blue. I really don’t understand where you guys must live to have such strange ideas about what goes on in medical offices. Perhaps you should just make an appt and see for yourselves. (No, I don’t mean have an abortion. Just schedule a gyn check-up.) These are licensed physicians and if they didn’t follow all the same laws as every other physican in the United States they’d lose their license to practice medicine. As I mentioned previously, not every woman has a private doctor. Many women receive all their gyn care in women’s health centers; abortion is just one service. There are also other minor surgeries performed in these offices that have nothing to do with terminating pregnancies. D&C’s for example have other uses totally unrelated to pregnancy termination and they are an in-office procedure. These health centers are always associated with a local hospital, so that in the rare chance of a medical emergency the patient can be tansferred to the hospital. Prescriptions are written, diagnostic tests are performed, check-ups are given, in short, a full range of services. I have not always had the good fortune to have health insurance; being a “cash patient” means not having the luxury of a private doctor. These medical centers cost a whole lot less than private doctors. Some of the women being called “murderers” and “baby killers” are pregnant women going for sonograms, or women having their annual pap smears. And of course some are terminating their pregnancies for reasons far more serious than “convenience.” All I read on these threads is that women have abortions so they can buy sports cars. Believe me, the women who go to “clinics” are not buying sports cars.
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o_mlly
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I love you like a brother (sister?) but methninks you must be a dentist because getting your slant is a bit like pulling teeth. Let us know when you’re ready to take a position.
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mary1173
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This sounds like the most logical sentence I’ve read so far. Prayer for conersion of a lukewarm soul.
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Doc_Keele
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Really? I have stated my position before. I don’t believe the conceptus has full moral status until it has implanted.
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Rence
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I just keep coming in here, hoping, PRAYING, that Rence and the others who are trying (and in some cases, doing a very good job of!) to explain that rape is a horrible act, and the woman would be justified to not want to carry the pregnancy that was the result of a rape to term.
… I am hoping and praying that they can understand that no amount of hurt, pain, embarrassment, depression, self-loathing, or anger can make it OK for a person to end another life.
And you don’t think I pray and hope that someone will understand me and my perspective? That I don’t agree with women being brutalized and violently raped, followed by the forcing of a resulting pregnancy? While you think I’m mistaken and misguided, I think some people here stone hearts towards a victimized woman. And some of the downright cruel and malignant things said about rape victims on this thread support my thoughts in black and white written for the whole internet community to read were done very pridefully I might add.
Some one else asked if abortion is ok in other instances; so far, I have not seen the reply to this question. (Lots of, ‘I’ve already answered’, though)
Well now you’re just being untruthful. I’ve answered that many times. I’ve said, no I don’t think abortion is okay in other circumstances. But I do believe that EC in the ER is a right for a woman, because she deserves the right to protect herself. Some of the those in the Church dont’ agree and equate it to ‘abortion’. Some priests and bishops do agree though, and are still in communion with the Church. And I’ll listen to them rather than listen to someone who would make me a victim in every way.
An unplanned or unwanted pregnancy is just that: unplanned or unwanted. That doesn’t make it any less of a pregnany, or any less of a human being, or any less of a child of God.
That’s yet another misunderstanding between you and me. A preganancy due to rape is not an “unplanned or unwanted” pregnancy. It is forcible domination over a woman in the most vile way, and then forcing her to become pregnant on top of it. An unplanned or unwanted pregnancy is done out of consensual sex. Period. There is a difference, it’s just unfortunate that you don’t acknowledge the difference. Perhaps the reason why we are on opposite sides of the fence is that I realize this difference, and you don’t. I used to be pro-life until I realized how pro-lifers are taking it to the degree of penalizing rape victim and working towards the continued abuse of rape victims. You made me understand how important it is to protect my freedom and autonomy.
I am still trying to understand if the people who support abortion in the case of rape understand that what the propose would be equal to saying ‘if you are hurting, it’s ok to play god’.
I’m not playing God, I’m doing what I can to protect myself.
Do you?
What am I missing?
**You’re simplying missing the point of a woman having autonomy and the right to protect herself. It’s as simple as that. Unfortunately, we disagree on this matter, which is the heart of the whole debate. By not recognizing a woman’s right to protect herself, to her autonomy, to her freedom, to the fact that she should not be forced to be pregnant after being violently raped, you’re not capable of understanding me. Conversely, while I do understand your perspective, the fact that I do recognize these rights for a woman, I cannot agree with you. It’s not a matter of a woman being “insulted” or “mistreated” which someone said, (which proves my point, when I said that rape is trivialized), it’s a matter of a woman being brutalized, not mistreated or insulted. I’ve been insulted many times of this forum, and that’s fine, I can take it. But being brutalized is another matter completely and women should not be subject to it. There is a difference, but it’s not recognized by some of you. That’s what’s missing. Without this componenet, you won’t agree with me and I won’t agree with you.
However, I do think another big part of this whole big ordeal is that some of you are putting a whole lot of effort to deny women the right to protect themselves, when really, perhaps you should be putting all that braun and vinegar into working towards preventing men from
raping women in the first place. If you put that much energy into stopping women from being raped by insisting on tougher consequences for rapists, perhaps there would be no rape to result in the need to prevent a forced pregnancy. I haven’t seen ONE post on this thread actually working towards resolving rape in the first place. However I have seen a few acknowledging that men had the right to rape women not too long ago…as if that was a convincing argument against women’s rights to protect themselves. As long as there is rape, there will be people who will make exceptions for abortion in the case of rape. Don’t like it? Perhaps you’re going about it the wrong way. Perhaps you should be approaching your dilema from the opposite direction. Instead of encouraging the further defilement of woman, do something constructive about preventing rape in the first place.
Even Brother was so dilegent about spewing out Church “legistation” that results in the lack of choices for the woman being raped (remember, I’m talking about brutality, not mere old insulting, or upsetting of women), but he never provided any such “legistation” to govern the rapist? What does the Church do about rapists? Are they excommunicated? Are they held accoutable? How can you expect me in good conscience to take you seriously about these “rules” when the rapist is supported by a lack of consequences.
Perhaps God holds the rapist in contempt instead of the victim in the case of abortion due to rape. I’m inclined to think he does. In fact, it doesn’t make any sense to me that he doesn’t. **
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kage_ar
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You may want to find out what happens at the store front abortion stores. Find out what medical licenses are required to do an abortion in your state. You will find it a very enlightening bunch of research.
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Rence
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When I feel like being coerced into being pregnant after being raped, I’ll give you a callHe or she has been dodging that question from me as well. Pray God that is because there is some grace of Baptism working and bringing conversion of heart
This sounds like the most logical sentence I’ve read so far. Prayer for conersion of a lukewarm soul.
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Apryl
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I haven’t seen that. I know I don’t believe that.
… but does this mean that you believe that if the woman is not buying a sports car, it’s ok to have an abortion?
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Rence
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People are usually given antibiotics whenever they have a surgical procedure. Either via IV drip during surgery, flushing before closing, or afterwards, or a combination. I haven’t seen a surgery that didn’t involve some prophylactic antibiotics being used. Though perhaps that’s a surgeon preference? I don’t have any documentation on it, I just saw them using it in three different hospital ORs and was told in class that this is how it’s done. When one of our animals has a misscarriage, we give antibiotics. Some flush the uterus with antibiotics. So it doesn’t make sense to me that someone would have an invasive procedure like an abortion and not get antibiotics…
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mary1173
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That’s not what I meant by the statement, and you know that. Abortion kills a human being. A human being that God created no matter if it were consentually or by rape. The rape is not the mothers or baby’s fault. But to abort the baby because its mother was raped and that baby was formed, is still killing a human being. Would you have liked it if your mother had said she was contemplating abortion because she did not want you or love you? I don’t think it would. And no one is coercing you. We’re explaining the Catholic belief on the subject. Stick to the subject. And quit trying to accuse others of things they did not say or mean.When I feel like being coerced into being pregnant after being raped, I’ll give you a call
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SugarMagnolia
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I did. I was surprised to learn that there are 8 states (NH VT WV KS MT OR AZ and HI) in which abortion can be performed by someone who isn’t a licensed physician. This should be changed asap! I live in one of the 42 states where abortion can only be performed by a licensed physician. Perhaps pro-lifers and pro-choicers should work together to make certain that every state requires abortions to be performed by licensed physicians to insure the safety of patients.
You know, if abortion is criminalized, women seeking abortions will not have any way to insure that they are being operated on by licensed physicians. This was the case before 1973. The horrors pro-lifers often speak of are rare nowadays, but will be frequent if abortion is taken out of the hands of licensed physicians.
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Fidelis_Unus
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You may follow your conscience, but you should not be receiving the Eucharist knowing you are defying an infallible teaching.
The Church can be and, often, is tolerant about dissenters. This does not give permission to those in unrepentant sin to continue participating in the Sacraments. That some priests may believe turning a parishioner away would make it more difficult for them to return fully to the Church is between the priest and God. There are times when the Church will step and put an end to such behavior.
None of this changes the Truth of what Br. JR. has written.
It’s really pretty simple. If one supports abortion in ANY circumstances they are in defiance of God’s will (explained by infallible teaching) and should not be receiving the Eucharist.
I do not believe that one has to agree with everything the church teaches to be Christian, but one has to agree with the Pope’s infallible teaching order to be a good Catholic.
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