Can science REALLY explain Reality?

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This is the point I tried to make in post #397 when referring to Hawking and Mlodinow’s model-dependent realism: science (physics) does not need the hypothesis of the existence of a theory independent (physical) reality although practically all scientists believe in it.

One has to assume that there is an objective, observer-independent, reality that scientific models/representations refer to, in order to make sense of science.
SV:

How does one assume “physical reality” within a grand illusion? The atom consists of dimensionless electrons, protons and neutrons, due to the fundamental particles of which they consist. If their constituent parts have zero dimension, what in the world are we observing? How does a sharp scalpel slice through our skin as though our skin is non-existent? That is, without resistance? In space, there is 100% nothingness and 0% what we believe to be reality. How do we reconcile that?

I think it is far, far easier to understand the existence of a Being that permits us to sense what He has created than to understand ‘reality’ as the real qua real.

God bless,
jd
 
I don’t know of any physical explanations of God, it doesn’t seem to make any sense to say that God created everything physical and yet was somehow already physical. I believe the totality of all that exists is God and God’s creation, and that God created the physical. Any claimed additions, the tens of thousands of supernatural inventions from various cultures, are imaginary.
Inocente:

So do we exist as bubbles within God? Or, are we somehow just sooo different from Him that we are separate by difference? Or, does He exist, as we are told, “within all things?”

Is there the possibility of another form of physicality? Perceptual, perhaps? Read a few pages in the following: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=611129
Reality is defined as the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be.
How certain are we that dimensionless exigencies constitute reality?
Philosophy has no means to reduce all its different schools, it’s –isms, down to a single explanation, and even then no way of knowing if it is true.
Repeatability in science does not equal certainty of reality. There are inductions based upon unnecessarily repeatable dialectics that provide just as much certainty as does science (which, as you know, uses induction as well).
Due to its methodology, science does home in on one explanation of the objective world. Whether this can explain the whole of reality revolves around whether any two people interpret the explanation in exactly the same way, and I’d say not, that ultimately reality is personal.
Interesting. 🙂

God bless,
jd
 
Not forgetting, of course, two important things arising from this exchange - one, that the way people imagine reality to be is itself part of reality; and that unless one explicitly defines god, which the major monotheisms initially did but from which definitions they have been progressively backing away in the face of the encroachment of science and modern philosphy,
Sair:

How in the world did you arrive at this? (This is, without any grounding whatsoever, a naked assertion.)

God bless,
jd
 
Well, that’s about as vague as anyone could wish.

Of course it’s reasonable to ignore what has been claimed for millennia but never demonstrated. Let’s just say, by way of analogy, that someone told me my “real” father was not the man I grew up calling “Dad”, but some invisible benefactor whom I was later informed had covered all the costs of my food, medical care, clothing, education (despite my known parents having been perfectly capable of providing all this), and who really wanted the best for me, honest, but just never wanted to be identified - and thus never wrote, never called, never visited, never gave me any reason to believe in his existence other than a bunch of post hoc claims that could just as easily be explained by other means. I would be more than within my rights to doubt, and probably even feel contemptuous of anyone who tried to convince me of this supposedly benevolent parent’s existence - in particular, since I would have every reason to lay the real credit for all the benefits of my upbringing at the door of my Mum and Dad, the evidence of whose care and diligence had always been immediately to hand.
Sair:

And if your parents were deceased, as mine are, are we then to conclude that the proof of their existence is just as illegitimate as you regard today’s proofs for God’s existence? Are the rest of us supposed to take you at your word? After all, you don’t have thousands of years of tradition, and (at least) seventy-three books, written by some 40 diverse writers, across 1,500 years. Not to mention, 2,000 years since Christ’s Resurrection of tradition and discovery. Ah, but we can toss all of that under the table . . .

God bless,
jd
 
TR:

Yes; the so-called “physical world” is not somehow separated from God. It is God Himself that manifests physicality. How can we sense non-dimensionality and invisibility? “Dimensionality” allows for the translation of the invisible into the visible - by our souls - which utilize our minds to manifest the one and the many. Otherwise, we would see only a smooth lattice-like plane broken by trillions of bumps. OUR ONLY REAL WORLD IS: “to be found in our thoughts, emotions, choices and decisions.” The illusion of the “physical world” is naught more than wonderful distraction - except that God more than likely wants us to interact with His fecundity and omnipotence.

We cannot yet see the souls of people or animals - except through interaction with their physical bodies. But, we can certainly sense that they are present. They are intricately tied up in the eternality of the God’s Mind. The arrogance of man to think that matter is all there is! It resolves itself as absolute trust in the complex illusion, instead of absolute trust in the Absolute Illusion provider/translator.

This rather short ‘time’ in our existence is our “trial.” It is our moment to prepare to see God’s face without hesitation.

The utter arrogance of the materialist/positivist! The utter disrespect!

Thank you for an excellent post.

God bless,
jd
Thank you for your support in the face of antagonism. Your posts are an unanticipated but unexcelled antidote to the anticlimax of antics on the part of antipathetic, anticlerical and antiquated antitheists! 😉
 
How does one assume “physical reality” within a grand illusion?
I am not sure what you mean by “grand illusion” unless you are referring to the Hindu concept of Maya:

From Wikipedia: “Māyā … in Indian religions, (is) usually quoted as “illusion”, centered on the fact that we do not experience the environment itself but rather a projection of it, created by us. Māyā is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe.”

Illusion or dream are not concepts that a philosopher of science would find enlightening in trying to explain what science is all about, and why it is so successful i.e. why physical theories (models) are so often able to explain and predict phenomena. Phenomenal universe is better, it makes sense for a scientist or philosopher even if he/she does not want to assume the existence of a reality independent of his/her (not God’s!) perception.
The atom consists of dimensionless electrons, protons and neutrons, due to the fundamental particles of which they consist. If their constituent parts have zero dimension, what in the world are we observing?
I think the Standard Model of particle physics is a bit more complicated (due e.g. to quantum mechanics). We are observing phenomena and experimental physicists are trying to determine in what sense our observations agree with the predictions of this or that theory.
I think it is far, far easier to understand the existence of a Being that permits us to sense what He has created than to understand ‘reality’ as the real qua real.
I agree. It is far easier to understand what the Church teaches about God than to understand e.g. the concepts on which quantum physics is built, or the mathematics behind the speculations leading to superstring theories, etc. Nevertheless, I think this does not imply that we should not use the reason God gave us to try to understand also rather abstract things about His creation, which includes also our very ability to strive for understanding. And act accordingly, keeping in mind also the moral norms He gave us.
 
I am not sure what you mean by “grand illusion” unless you are referring to the Hindu concept of Maya:
SV:

To back track a bit, I forgot to welcome you to CAF. So, let me take this opportunity to do just that!

Actually, I am not meaning “illusion” in the street sense, or Mayan sense… I mean it in, well, let’s say a “metaphysical” sense. Biblically, we read that God is Infinite and IN all things. Our physicality cannot and does not displace anything that is God. I think that what we think is “reality” is configurations of space-points (s-points), within infinite space, that appear to be stuff having “mass.” Furthermore, in my opinion, we are permitted to view stuff but only from an explicate perspective, so to speak, while God creates and sustains through an implicate perspective. (We often call these views the “physical” and “spiritual”. But, as we know, scientists, in some parts, don’t like those words and, in fact, are often want to repudiate them.)

Einstein said that what we know (and I presume “see”) is a “persistent illusion.” I think he was quite correct.
Illusion or dream are not concepts that a philosopher of science would find enlightening in trying to explain what science is all about, and why it is so successful i.e. why physical theories (models) are so often able to explain and predict phenomena. Phenomenal universe is better, it makes sense for a scientist or philosopher even if he/she does not want to assume the existence of a reality independent of his/her (not God’s!) perception.
No doubt. But, that’s as expected. That’s how He wants us to see, i.e., it’s part of His creative provision. How else can we exist? Remember, He is Infinite - not only in all attributes but also in sheer magnitude. To assume that we exist over here, and He over there, is anthropomorphic absurdity.
I think the Standard Model of particle physics is a bit more complicated (due e.g. to quantum mechanics). We are observing phenomena and experimental physicists are trying to determine in what sense our observations agree with the predictions of this or that theory.
Despite what is propounded, what is an atom? An electron shell, consisting of point particles, that averages 50,000 times greater volume than its nucleus. What is the substance of that shell? Of what does it consist? It’s not the soup.
I agree. It is far easier to understand what the Church teaches about God than to understand e.g. the concepts on which quantum physics is built, or the mathematics behind the speculations leading to superstring theories, etc. Nevertheless, I think this does not imply that we should not use the reason God gave us to try to understand also rather abstract things about His creation, which includes also our very ability to strive for understanding. And act accordingly, keeping in mind also the moral norms He gave us.
Strings or string beans, it makes no difference. Although, more than likely we’ll know, some day. I think God wants us to know.

There is an earlier thread herein called, “God exists, but how?” Here’s its link. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=322104 Read particularly the posts by Yppop. You are more than welcome to comment, even though it is an older thread. (I think it’s scary to many people!)

God bless,
jd
 
Just as the effects of the supernatural have been observed, recorded and confirmed.
Right on Julia Mae. See www.feastofmercy.net for 140 Eucharistic miracles which converges nicely within themselves and with the many other miracles of Christ including His resurrection and changing of water into wine. I bet that wine and the bread and fish he multiplied were deliciously out-of-this world.

He was a master chemist, physicist and biologist. Recent data from modern scientific disciplines are now converging to suggest that He also created rather quickly as He said He did in scripture.:eek: 🙂
 
Sair:

And if your parents were deceased, as mine are, are we then to conclude that the proof of their existence is just as illegitimate as you regard today’s proofs for God’s existence?
This has been covered in numerous places before by much better philosophers than me - the credulity required for common natural claims like the existence of parents is orders of magnitude less than that required for supernatural claims. We know how humans are produced, so it’s no leap of faith to assume that every extant human had parents, even if those parents are now dead. We are even now at the stage where we can obtain genetic information from a person relating to the genetic makeup of their parents. Seems all fair and above-board to me.

In any case, my analogy was intended to go beyond claims about imaginary parents - I was merely picking up the theme suggested by “filial ingratitude” in the post to which I was replying. The point was to illustrate that in order to demonstrate the existence of god, it requires more than mere insistence that he exists, and the claim to indirect evidence of the kind made by those who say the whole of the universe is evidence of god. It’s not - it’s evidence of the universe and all its phenomena, and increasingly is evidence of a universe that doesn’t need outside intervention in order to exist.
Are the rest of us supposed to take you at your word? After all, you don’t have thousands of years of tradition, and (at least) seventy-three books, written by some 40 diverse writers, across 1,500 years. Not to mention, 2,000 years since Christ’s Resurrection of tradition and discovery. Ah, but we can toss all of that under the table . . .
So, much as most Christian believers toss out the history and traditions of every other faith that humans have ever invented, you mean?
 
Sair:

How in the world did you arrive at this? (This is, without any grounding whatsoever, a naked assertion.)

God bless,
jd
Two things I thought were quite obvious - it’s a fact that people imagine things. Are you going to claim now that the contents of human imagination are not part of reality? It may well be the case that unicorns do not exist as separate entities, but it’s clear to any student of mythology and fantasy literature that they most certainly exist as concepts held within human minds, often translated into other media such as written descriptions, paintings, sculpture and so on.

Now, it may well be that the existence of god is no different. I’m more than happy to concede that many people entertain the concept of god. Even I have a concept of god. But this should make it obvious why, if one is attempting to demonstrate the existence of one’s particular concept of a deity, as something other than a concept, then it’s important to define what that deity is and what would count as evidence for it. It’s easy enough to examine the claims made about Yahweh, as a tribal war god who actively intervenes in human affairs, and say such a being does not exist, any more than do the gods of the ancient Greek or Roman pantheons, or indeed any other prominent mythological figure.

On the other hand, if you’re going to say, “Oh, but God is love” or some other such vague statement equating god with a collection of human concepts and experiences, then it’s easy enough to point to people’s shared experiences of love, for example, and claim it as evidence of your god. But in the end, that is at least as bald an assertion as any of which you’ve accused me. I accept that love exists and even experience it for myself, but I don’t call it god.
 
Sair:

The arrogance of presuming that we have all of that power!

If we would only LOOK to SEE what stuff consists of, we would instantly recognize our arrogance.

God bless,
jd
You mean the power to contemplate our own insignificance? I know. Insufferably arrogant, aren’t we? :rolleyes:
 
The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena … it will stop being (natural) science as it is usually understood today, i.e. as the study of physical phenomena.
You have a very narrow and cliquish view of science.

It cracks me up how we run away from our giants – Tesla, Einstein, et al, when it comes to comments about the unseen. THEY wouldn’t know anything about REAL science, would they?

🤷
 
The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena … it will stop being (natural) science as it is usually understood today, i.e. as the study of physical phenomena.
The question remains as to how and where one draws the line between ‘physical’ and ‘non-physical’ phenomena, and further, between natural and non-natural phenomena. If by “non-physical” one simply means non-tangible in the sense of not being able to be held or touched or prodded, then we already have candidates for those things - sound waves and light waves, thought patterns and progressions, information - into which science is already making inroads of investigation and elucidation. But are these things non-natural or supernatural in any sense? And how would we know?

To reiterate a point I’ve made on another thread, the basis of physicalism is simply this - that supposing ourselves to be physical beings (on a pretty sound basis, I would add) then such phenomena as we may detect with our own senses and perceptions or with the sensory enhancements provided by (again, physical) technology, are also physically manifested.

Where I think the naturalist position departs significantly from the supernaturalist position - and if we are at this point equating physicalism with naturalism - is in the understanding of the essential character of phenomena. The supernaturalist might suppose that a concept such as beauty, say, has an existence in its own right - a platonic perfect form, which imposes its order upon imperfect nature and is thus to be considered supernatural, beyond the natural. A naturalist, on the other hand, will recognise beauty as a manifestation of multiple interrelated and interactive phenomena, including but not limited to the symmetry of the object, the perception of the observer, and the multitude of physical forces that allow for symmetry and permit perception. The difference might be summed up by saying that the supernaturalist takes a top-down approach to understanding reality, whilst the naturalist’s approach is bottom-up - as demonstrated quite handily by the fundamental disagreement between the creationist/intelligent design proponent and the evolutionary biologist.
 
The question remains as to how and where one draws the line between ‘physical’ and ‘non-physical’ phenomena, and further, between natural and non-natural phenomena.
I would suggest that smilarly to how we are better able to draw what we are familiar with, we elucidate as best we can our widest range of perceptions according to our most familiar ideas and prejudices. In other words, because we labor most commonly at the level of perception that appears to our human senses as gross materiality, we will tend to interpret everything at a every level, as it becomes accessible to the extensions of our senses by maths or machines, according to the level of sense/logic/premise encounter we have most habituated ours minds to.

In a moveie called Down the Rabbit Hole, it is suggested that the aborigenese on the island Columbus first visited did not see his ships because they had no referent in their experience for such objects. Eventually they infered the presence of the ships through such things as they were familiar with, eg wave patterns and shadows, and the explorers themselves later. Smilarly the story is told of the farmer who could not see the steam engine in front of him because it was such a radically different object from his ordinary reality. The same has been said of juggling, something that was at one time regarded as magic, and even of UFO’s. Some people don’t see them, it is said, because there is nothing in their sense inventory of such objects behaving that way.

And fascinatingly, Penn and Teller have demonstrated that the cups and balls trick, you know, where the ball is under one of three glasses and you have to guess which one, can be done with clear glasses and it will still work! They are even a part, now, of a study of how stage magic exemplifies how humans are incapable of perceiving much that is right before their eyes and only perceivable when they are educated into the illusion step by step.

So perhaps the interpretations of physics and scirnce, and lo, of religion, are of things that naturally exist, but due to the inadequate education of the sensory apparatus a interpretive mind and its level of awareness, are not correctly or completely assesed. And certainly not into oranges of perception we as a race are ordinarliy not used to operating in. This would hold especially true, I would imagine, of descriptions of whole systems, thus certainly putting the lie to “objectivity.”

In a similar sense, we know that the developing human passes though certain stages of maturity, each one of those moving away from infantile self absorption to greater levels of inclusivity. The sense of self and what is identified as constituting it and what is important to it also develops. So one successively self identifies as bodyselfworld, objects seperate from that, eg mother, environment, family, sociial group, etc, into ever larger circles. Unless, perhaps, as MRI scans seem to indicate of those with conservative tendencies, they remain identified within themselves with the fear centers of the brain. Liberals tend, it seems, to be more whole brain active, and therefore more aware of systems survival as distinct from the need of personal survival.

But in any case, there are at least nine of these fulcrums of maturity definable by what the sense of self identifies with, even into the realm of ideas. Most commonly humans operate at the fifth level at best, with hints of the sixth. This sort of corresponds to the senses and intuition to a small degree. The higher levels have to do with experiential understanding of the inner reaches of awareness itself.

This is where the border is crossed into psychic and energy awareness, eg those who have ability to see auras, medical intuitives, etc. Then comes levels of mysticism and powers, and lastly the breaking of the identification of self with phenomena of any kind or degree. This last is the greatest mystery and the most controversial in terms of being not only misunderstood by those in less inclusive states, but denied by most as having any validity of existance at all. It is that radical in scope of shipt in identity. Some even give it a different category of knowledge, that of knowledge by identiy itself. So, basically, each level includes and transcends the level before it.

So as we as a race tend to operate somewhere mid-range on that scale as a matter of course, it is likely that our interpretations of our sense and mind experiences, no matter how rationally organized, will be at least incomplete and exclusive of those further ranges of familiarity with the extentions of awareness yet to ba achieved.

If this is appearant anywhere, it is most appearant in the realm of religious interpretation. Certainly there is a faciltiy for intellectually a institutionally categorizing the ordinary simple faithful as distinct from the lofty realms of Sainthood. But despite having an intellectual ability to say that Saints are qualitatively different, there is no expereintial referent in the ordinary “soul” that is able to distinguish what, in terms of awareness, is actually and substantially different from the ordinary parishoner and cleric and those lofy individuals.

And yet there is the necessary and persitent sense that one is completly complete as they are, despite evidence of lack of competency in any numbers of kinds and degrees of accomplishment, including levels of awareness, parituclaly of the interior dimensions. Indeed, due to the institutional nature of religion and the propensitiy to identify with dogma as “reality,” entire ranges of perception are not only denied as being possible by the ordinary faithful, but when someone attemts encouragement in the direction of maturity, there is very often reaction and even revilement. It is little wonder, in fact, that Jesus was crucified so easily. He was a very pink monkey amongst the furry brown ones and stood out too much to be comfortable relative to the ordinary paradigm of survival and explanation.

So is it any wonder that there are those few who say “whoa—wait a aminute—what if He meant xyz, not abc? Or both, but not that way?” Similarly, we will look at what little we know of science and existence itself and make our assesments and draw our conclusions according to the level of “reality” we percieve and feel as ours, and because it is ours and we feel whole, mosty, distribute that feeling of wholeness over the data that is contents in our mind as a paradigm, however incomplete and therefore misleading. And that paradigm might itslelf be the best set of blinders going!
 
So perhaps the interpretations of physics and scirnce, and lo, of religion, are of things that naturally exist, but due to the inadequate education of the sensory apparatus a interpretive mind and its level of awareness, are not correctly or completely assesed. And certainly not into oranges of perception we as a race are ordinarliy not used to operating in. This would hold especially true, I would imagine, of descriptions of whole systems, thus certainly putting the lie to “objectivity.”



So is it any wonder that there are those few who say “whoa—wait a aminute—what if He meant xyz, not abc? Or both, but not that way?” Similarly, we will look at what little we know of science and existence itself and make our assesments and draw our conclusions according to the level of “reality” we percieve and feel as ours, and because it is ours and we feel whole, mosty, distribute that feeling of wholeness over the data that is contents in our mind as a paradigm, however incomplete and therefore misleading. And that paradigm might itslelf be the best set of blinders going!
So would you say that those who know of science but are not, shall we say, “cutting edge” in their knowledge/skill level, are more likely to insist that there are “comfortable” boundaries – even as they cheer on their own heroes who not only see past those boundaries but go through them? It seems the BIG achievers all insist there is more out there that we cannot see, and they hint around that we may never see them. But that doesn’t sell to those who have been brainwashed by academia, society, bad religion, etc, into thinking everything is in a tidy little package and certified by some certifying agency, or it doesn’t exist. It’s like, why do these leaders say these things? Maybe it’s to encourage others to open their minds, rather than cluck about how weird they are compared to us. Why don’t we want to hear them? I guess we don’t like it when somebody other than the captain is rocking the boat.

Alan
 
So there’s no actual evidence this ever happened.
Sorry Julia, I’m not going to search through 2,900 posts to find them. Interesting that you pick me up on that when the main clause of my sentence was about those who claim the mind is supernatural yet never substantiate the claim. Do I take it you agree with me or if not will you be the first to substantiate the claim?
Just as the effects of the supernatural have been observed, recorded and confirmed.
Have they? Repeatably? Interesting, could you give a few examples?
 
The short answer is that you describe yourself as a Baptist, I as a Roman Catholic.

The long answer would depend on what level you want me to elaborate in order that you can discern where we differ. One can start with the Nicene Creed that describes my preferred representation/modeling of the Something that Catholics and other Christians obviously see more structured than a mere assignemnt to it of the word God, more structured than also e.g. the Jewish or Muslim representations.

Here I use the terminology of representation and modelling borrowed from the philosophy of science (that I feel more confident with than philosophy of religion) to answer the question “how can we know reality” after Eistein, quentum physics and what seems to follow; see e.g. the Hawking-Mlodinow book referred to in #397.
From what you wrote here and in #397, perhaps a difference between us is I’m blind to the value of trying to put whatever we call reality on a theoretical basis, since there’s no way to verify such a theory. Basically I’m with Feynman on his steak + hungry philosophers joke.
 
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