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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Obviously not if the couple is Catholic but what of friends or family members that would like the deacon to be the officiant?
Can/should a Catholic deacon perform a wedding ceremony outside of the church?
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babochka
Guest
What if the deacon is also a judge/civil marriage officiant in the secular world?
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Mintaka
Guest
Judges don’t have to marry people anywhere. Justices of the peace, etc., are usually bound to do civil stuff, so it would be imprudent for them to serve and create the impression that someone was married by a Catholic clergyman.
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Usige
Guest
Deacons, as members of the clergy, should not be holding public office that exercises civil authority. This is called out in Canon 285§3 which says “Clerics are forbidden to assume public offices which entail a participation in the exercise of civil power”.
The use of forbidden is a pretty strong prohibition against holding public office. That’s not to say that there aren’t deacons who do, but it would seem to be exceedingly unwise especially in this day and age where civil law is often openly antagonistic to Catholic teaching.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No. A Catholic cleric (priest or bishop) can only officiate at Catholic marriage ceremonies. That’s according to Church law because in order to officiate/witness a marriage, all of the other conditions must be present.
The civil law might allow it. Of course that varies by state. However that doesn’t matter because the deacon (or priest) is still only authorized by the Church to witness marriages that meet all the other conditions of canon law.
Now, if either the bride or groom is Catholic, and all other conditions have been met, including permission by the bishop to hold the ceremony outdoors or in some other place, then the answer would be “yes.” As you wrote, though, you’re not asking about that.
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FrDavid96
Guest
In that case, he would have to be sure to act in such as a way to be absolutely clear that he is not functioning “as a deacon.” That means, no clerical clothes, no stole, no blessings, no mention of the Church, etc. He would also have to indicate on the license his civil (not Church) title. It would be very imprudent for a deacon to to this.
Describing a scenario in which this would be possible would read like a short-story fiction.
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Brendan
Guest
What if the couple had received a Dispensation of Canonical Form?. My understanding of that I can include the permission by the Bishop for the wedding to be held outside of the a Church ( Canon 1115)
Assuming that the Deacon had proper delegation ( Canon 1108 §1), would not a Deacon be able to witness a marriage in such circumstances?
Assuming that the Deacon had proper delegation ( Canon 1108 §1), would not a Deacon be able to witness a marriage in such circumstances?
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1ke
Guest
No. If they are dispensed from form then a Catholic deacon or priest cannot receive the exchange of consent/witness the marriage.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes.
Only not the way you describe.
The permission to have the outdoor wedding depends on the dispensation from canonical form (the lesser permission is included as part of the greater dispensation). The couple could reject the dispensation from canonical form after it’s granted (they are free to change their minds), but then they would need to re-petition for the permission to have the wedding outside.
A bishop could grant permission for an outdoor wedding with the deacon as the officiant. That’s entirely possible, however the deacon would still be functioning “as a deacon” and would be required to follow the Catholic marriage rite.
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Brendan
Guest
Understood, my question was more towards the situation outlined by OP in post #1, not the second situation of a Deacon who happens to be a JoP
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. Your variation of the scenario was about a couple who gets both a dispensation from canonical form and permission for an outdoor wedding. As I read it, you were asking if they could choose to reject the dispensation from form, but still keep the permission for outdoors. Do I have it right?
I think I do, so let me explain:
The permission for a wedding in a place other-than a Catholic Church is given because the bishop also gave a dispensation from canonical form. That “because” is critical. The permission is dependent upon the dispensation. If the bishop knew that the couple really did want to be married by a Catholic cleric (priest or deacon makes no difference here), he might not have given that permission for the wedding to be in other-than-Catholic-church (safe to say that would be true of most bishops in most circumstances, especially if it would mean outdoors). That means that if the couple changes their minds and decides to have a Catholic cleric officiate, then that changes everything. The original reason that motivated the bishop to grant the permission no longer applies.
The end result is that if the couple wants to keep the outdoor venue but still have a deacon officiate, this can be done, but only if they submit a new petition to the bishop asking for only the one permission (not the dispensation).
What I am imaging you’re asking is if a couple could (either by coincidence or by intent) ask for both dispensation from form and permission for outdoors, but then reject the first while keeping the second. The answer is still that they could do it, however they just cannot do it in exactly the way you described. Again, they would have to submit a new petition, and the bishop could either grant it or deny it.
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Brendan
Guest
I see the misunderstanding. In our Archdiocese, the permission for an outdoor wedding is processed as a Dispensation from Canonical Form.
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FrDavid96
Guest
I don’t see how. They are 2 completely different matters, and 2 completely different laws.
Further, failure to get a dispensation from canonical form makes the attempt at marriage invalid, while failure to get permission for outdoors merely makes the situation illicit (at worst) but not invalid.
It is typical (in my experience at least, and I’ve dealt with this in several different diocese) that when a dispensation from canonical form is granted, the permission to hold the ceremony in a place other-than a Catholic church is likewise given (even if the priest doesn’t ask for it). This is because in most cases, if the officiant is non-Catholic, then it’s almost a given that the location will not be in the Catholic church.
It could be that the bishop has a policy that he will only consider petitions for permission for an outdoor wedding if that’s in the context of a dispensation from canonical form.
However, if the officiant is a Catholic cleric and the couple is only requesting that the ceremony be held outdoors, then a dispensation from canonical form just doesn’t make sense. I just don’t see how the archdiocese could get the two issues confused.
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1ke
Guest
No, this is not not possible.
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dochawk
Guest
Err, Father, is there a circumstance in which permission for an outdoor wedding is actually given in the Latin RIte? (other than when Catholic wedding is dispensed with?)
My understanding is that this came down with a resounding NO from Rome some years ago, due to the importance of the wedding being in an actual church as the appropriate place for such a solemnity.
My daughter’s wedding was the only licit outdoor Catholic wedding of which I’ve ever heard–but we actually have a second consecrated Holy Table on one of our patios. This wasn’t done to have an outside wedding, but due to the number of people that fit into our building.
That time, we actually fabricated a makeshift iconostasis with cloth, with openings for the doors (no, we didn’t hang doors
). Except for the fabric, it worked so well that since then, we hold Pascha services outside, and have also moved outside for a pastoral visit or two from our bishop.
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1ke
Guest
There are a few bishops here and there who will grant permission for an outdoor wedding.
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FrDavid96
Guest
There could be. That’s decided by the individual diocesan bishop. Remember, we’re talking about doing something that requires the bishop’s permission (it’s not technically a “dispensation” because the law already permits such permission to be given), so the fact that permission may be given speaks for itself. It’s like any other issue requiring permission: if the one making the request has a good reason and the bishop agrees that it’s a good reason, then he may (certainly not "must) give it.
I don’t know the exact circumstances you’re describing here. Canon law already requires that the wedding be held in a parish church (not even an official shrine or chapel), while at the same time allowing the bishop to make exceptions. Since the bishop can already make exceptions, I’m not sure why the question was even submitted to Rome, or even who was doing the asking.
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Brendan
Guest
As an fyi, I did chat with my pastor about this. What is meant by ‘processed identically’ is that there is one form for the pastor to fill out that covers both circumstances.
The pastor checks off the one that applies, fills in the relevant details, and submits it to the Chancellery.
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FrDavid96
Guest
OK. That’s a little different.
That’s typical, at least in the U.S… Most diocese have a single form that applies to almost anything and the petitioner checks one or more boxes. It makes things easier on everybody.
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