Can somebody explain "Rapture" to me

[lak611]

This is the biggest turn-off of all about fundamentalist dispensationalism. It is a merely smug bludgeon to try and scare the biblically ignorant into belief.

I am not a disciple of Jesus because I’m a-scared I’m going to be “Left Behind” – I’m a disciple of Jesus and a born-again (through water and the Spirit) Catholic because he is my Lord and my Savior. And that’s the program you need to get with.

:clapping: :yup:

 

[flameburns623]

Then we have an odd dating system. Is the real year (infinite)+1?

The Year of Our Lord 1 marks the hypothetical date of the Incarnation of our Lord. It does not mark the date at which He came into existence. Jesus has always existed, but He took on human flesh at a specific point in time.

My point is that all human being, from Adam and Eve forward, are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone–whether that faith looked forward to the coming Christ or looks backward to the risen Christ.

exoflare:

. . . Anyway, your admission that God really does reveal Himself in an incomplete way to certain people is already enough to prove my point.

God does not ‘reveal Himself in an incomplete way’. He saves sinners, through the merits of His only-begotten Son. That is the only way He has revealed that anyone is saved. “No one comes to the Father except by Me” as Christ Himself explained it.
lak 611:

You mentioned Arminians. At least in my experiences, dispensationalism has been exclusive to the Reformed, Calvinist camp. I’ve never encountered an Arminian who had dispensationalist beliefs.

Acceptance of the Rapture theory is not limited to Dispensationalists, and some Dispensationalists are Post-tribulationists (e.g. Robert Gundry). Virtually all charismatic/Pentecostal Protestants are Arminian, and virtually all accept and preach the pre-tribulational Rapture.
a priori:

I was an evangelical for 25 years and probably would have posted the same thing years ago. I would have been wrong then and you are, with the greatest respect, wrong now. No one talked about a Rapture until J.N. Darby around 1830. He lit the fuse of dispensationalism.

Some advocates of the pre-tribulational rapture try to argue that the teaching had precedents and historical roots before Darby. Others argue that the Church simply did not do much to develop eschatological theology until the last century or two, and so the ‘new truths’ of the pre-trib rapture were always embedded in Scripture but were not discovered until Darby and others drew them out of the text. It is a mistake to link the pre-trib Rapture idea too closely with Dispensationalism: one need not be a Dispensationalist to believe in the pre-Trib Rapture.

I am not a proponent of the pre-Trib Rapture, by the way: I favor Jewish Apocalypticism as a more-faithful way to read the eschatological themes of Scripture. This approach makes my eschatology more compatible with historic and traditional understandings of the subject than with Hal Lindsay or Jenkins and LaHaye. Mainstream Roman Catholic understandings of the Last Things are not radically different from my own, the main distinction being my emphasis upon the primacy of Scripture over Tradition or Church authority.

 

[a_priori]

Others argue that the Church simply did not do much to develop eschatological theology until the last century or two, and so the ‘new truths’ of the pre-trib rapture were always embedded in Scripture but were not discovered until Darby and others drew them out of the text…

One of the inherent hazards of Sola Scriptura is the ability to discover “new truths” that “were always embedded in Scripture”. The Bible by itself is great for presupposing what you claim to prove… Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, et.al. found new stuff too. Leave the historical interpretation of the Catholic Church and you get hermeneutical chaos.

It is a mistake to link the pre-trib Rapture idea too closely with Dispensationalism: one need not be a Dispensationalist to believe in the pre-Trib Rapture.

I’ll take you at your word but in my experience with dispensationalists for 40 years (and being one for 20) I have found a consistent and intimate link between the two. But my mileage has been known to vary.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

No third coming. But, he will come like a thief in the night for those who are waiting for him. People who think it’s about a song by blondie will probably miss it completely. I can’t find blondie anywhere in scripture.

Thiefs in the night do not come with a shout do they?

1st coming - The Incarnation

2nd coming - Thief in the night to collect the believers pre tribulation

3rd coming - He comes down to destroy the antichrist and start his 1000 year reign.

No matter how you look at it, Rapture Theology is something that is not of scripture. Christ will come once more at the END of time, on the last day John 6:54, and Christians that endure to the end Mat 24:13 will be saved.

For Rapture Theology to be scriptural you have to make several leaping assumptions:

1. That 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 speaks of anything other then the second coming of the Lord. There is nothing there to indicated that.
2. That the above mentioed passages say they will take place “prior” to a time of tribulation.
3. Both passages speak of a very public event not the private thief in the night that rapture theology assumes.

 

[Eschato]

The Year of Our Lord 1 marks the hypothetical date of the Incarnation of our Lord. It does not mark the date at which He came into existence. Jesus has always existed, but He took on human flesh at a specific point in time.

My point is that all human being, from Adam and Eve forward, are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone–whether that faith looked forward to the coming Christ or looks backward to the risen Christ.

Ooooh, I know I know. I was merely making light of the situation.

 

[believers]

Thiefs in the night do not come with a shout do they?

1st coming - The Incarnation

2nd coming - Thief in the night to collect the believers pre tribulation

3rd coming - He comes down to destroy the antichrist and start his 1000 year reign.

No matter how you look at it, Rapture Theology is something that is not of scripture. Christ will come once more at the END of time, on the last day John 6:54, and Christians that endure to the end Mat 24:13 will be saved.

For Rapture Theology to be scriptural you have to make several leaping assumptions:

1. That 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 speaks of anything other then the second coming of the Lord. There is nothing there to indicated that.
2. That the above mentioed passages say they will take place “prior” to a time of tribulation.
3. Both passages speak of a very public event not the private thief in the night that rapture theology assumes.

That Vatican says “Second coming of Christ at the end of time”. So that means you are wrong you have to believe your religion.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

That Vatican says “Second coming of Christ at the end of time”. So that means you are wrong you have to believe your religion.

Huh??? I said the second coming was at the end of time. I quoted scripture to back up the Churches teaching “Christ will come once more at the END of time, on the last day John 6:54, and Christians that endure to the end Mat 24:13 will be saved.”
,I don’t understand what you are saying here?

 

[MrStain]

Sorry, I am a newbie here. I keep hearing Christians talk about this term “Rapture” and am confused. Is it like in the movies when out of nowhere Christians are teleported into heaven? Is that what Catholics believe and are waiting patiently for? Thanks!

The Rapture is also known nowadays as the Gospel according to Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

I must admit that when I picked up and read the first book in their “Left Behind” series I was hooked. At the time I was not going to Church, but I still believed in God as I was taught as a youth by my Baptist mother. Those books got my wife and I really thinking about our faith and how we wanted to raise our children. By the grace of God our children were soon invited to a vacation bible school at a local baptist church and since that week we have not missed Church on Sunday. Of course, we’ve had quite a journey since then and we are now home in the Church Jesus founded.

God Bless!

 

[mercygate]

One of the great classics of the late 60s early 70s on this popChristian theology was a book “Late Great Planet Earth”.

Here and here are sites that reviewed the predictions in this book in the light of later events. Hmm… Seems like the 40 year generation after the founding of Israel is up. The 10 nation common market is now up to what…12 or 13? Ethiopia?

So what does Hal do? We now have an updated “Late Great Planet Earth”. And Hal is just as popular as ever as a popChristian expert in the area of the return of Christ.

The historic track record of Darbyism is in the false prophet range.

One of the things a lot of Catholicss don’t “get” when people come on this site is that mainstream Protestants are just as impatient with Darbyism as Catholics. John Martignoni has a terrific talk on his web site biblechristiansociety.com about the rapture. In it he says he looked up “rapture” on a dozen web sites and not one of them agreed with the other, yet all claimed to base their theology on Scripture alone.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa has the best stance on this subject: We do not know, and not even the Son knows when the Lord will come. This is not going to be on the test!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The answer is much much more in depth which I will not get into. But the short answer is it is the last week in Daniel’s 70 Weeks. The prophetic timeclock of Daniel starts again (after the rapture) to complete the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks.

Hi,
I just studied the book of Daniel. When you study it out the 7 years of tribulation and all of that 70 weeks thing becomes crystal clear.
With that said I could never spit it back out to anyone. Daniel is a very difficult book to understand. I think in order to get it you have to study it yourself.

My church teaches and believes in the Rapture. I really dont know too much about it to have an opinion one way or another. I just try and make myself ready to face the Lord:thumbsup:

My friend’s answer to all of this,which I like, is “I believe in panmillenialism–It will out pan out in the end”

 

[lak611]

I really dont know too much about it to have an opinion one way or another. I just try and make myself ready to face the Lord:thumbsup:

My friend’s answer to all of this,which I like, is “I believe in panmillenialism–It will out pan out in the end”

I agree. We don’t know when He is coming so we have to make sure we’re ready when He does, and yes, the Bible does say it will “pan out in the end” because He will defeat the devil.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hi,
I just studied the book of Daniel. When you study it out the 7 years of tribulation and all of that 70 weeks thing becomes crystal clear.
With that said I could never spit it back out to anyone. Daniel is a very difficult book to understand. I think in order to get it you have to study it yourself.

My church teaches and believes in the Rapture. I really dont know too much about it to have an opinion one way or another. I just try and make myself ready to face the Lord:thumbsup:

My friend’s answer to all of this,which I like, is “I believe in panmillenialism–It will out pan out in the end”

A Church of Christ here at work named Chuck Stephenson used the same term (pan~~~~~~~). Are you Chuck?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

A Church of Christ here at work named Chuck Stephenson used the same term (pan~~~~~~~). Are you Chuck?

Hi,

No, Im a lady LOL My friend who said it wasnt named chuck either. But I guess your co-worker feels the same way.

 

[Janet_S]

Hi,
I just studied the book of Daniel. When you study it out the 7 years of tribulation and all of that 70 weeks thing becomes crystal clear.
With that said I could never spit it back out to anyone. Daniel is a very difficult book to understand. I think in order to get it you have to study it yourself.

My church teaches and believes in the Rapture. I really dont know too much about it to have an opinion one way or another. I just try and make myself ready to face the Lord:thumbsup:

My friend’s answer to all of this,which I like, is “I believe in panmillenialism–It will out pan out in the end”

So are you saying that it doesn’t matter to you that your Church may be teaching an error, a doctrine that no Christian Church believed before the 1830’s?

You say that you have no opinion, “it will all pan out in the end.” Aren’t you concerned with knowing the Truth? If your Church is wrong on this, what else is it wrong about?

Truth is important. We can’t just go along with the latest theological fad.

 

[deb1]

So are you saying that it doesn’t matter to you that your Church may be teaching an error, a doctrine that no Christian Church believed before the 1830’s?

You say that you have no opinion, “it will all pan out in the end.” Aren’t you concerned with knowing the Truth? If your Church is wrong on this, what else is it wrong about?

Truth is important. We can’t just go along with the latest theological fad.

I think that she is saying that this isn’t a matter that effects a person’s salvation. Some Protestant churches do believe that if you don’t except such beliefs then you are doomed.

My worry about people who hold this view is that when persecution comes, they will loose faith. Afterall, if they were supposed to lbe spared suffering, then having to undergo persecution will be a major stumbling block to them. I hope not.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Just as a side note, I think it’s important to understand what a Catholic means when they talk about a rapture.

1. A rapture is absolutely irresistible; whilst union, inasmuch as we are then on our own ground, may be hindered, though that resistance be painful and violent; it is, however, almost always impossible. But rapture, for the most part, is irresistible. It comes, in general, as a shock, quick and sharp, before you can collect your thoughts, or help yourself in any way, and you see and feel it as a cloud, or a strong eagle rising upwards, and carrying you away on its wings.

1. I repeat it: you feel and see yourself carried away, you know not whither. For though we feel how delicious it is, yet the weakness of our nature makes us afraid at first, and we require a much more resolute and courageous spirit than in the previous states, in order to risk everything, come what may, and to abandon ourselves into the hands of God, and go willingly whither we are carried, seeing that we must be carried away, however painful it may be; and so trying is it, that I would very often resist, and exert all my strength, particularly at those times when the rapture was coming on me in public. I did so, too, very often when I was alone, because I was afraid of delusions. Occasionally I was able, by great efforts, to make a slight resistance; but afterwards I was worn out, like a person who had been contending with a strong giant; at other times it was impossible to resist at all: my soul was carried away, and almost always my head with it,–I had no power over it,–and now and then the whole body as well, so that it was lifted up from the ground.

It seems to be an extremely rare event even amongst the loves of the saints, but Catholics do believe that they can be enraptured in God’s grace, a kind of exaltation like St. Francis of Assisi expereinced.

And I suppose, in a sense, there is a kind of rising in the air when one experiences this kind of rapture, something which should be understood in distinction to union.

But, on the whole, the evangelical concept of rapture is radically different from the Catholic rapture.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think that she is saying that this isn’t a matter that effects a person’s salvation. Some Protestant churches do believe that if you don’t except such beliefs then you are doomed.

My worry about people who hold this view is that when persecution comes, they will loose faith. Afterall, if they were supposed to lbe spared suffering, then having to undergo persecution will be a major stumbling block to them. I hope not.

Yes thank you Deb. If I am here when the end comes and I have to endure the tribulation,well, so be it. I am preparing myself now by studying Gods word as much as possible and strengthening my faith now so I will be able to withstand such persecution. As every day goes by I do feel stronger in my faith.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So are you saying that it doesn’t matter to you that your Church may be teaching an error, a doctrine that no Christian Church believed before the 1830’s?

You say that you have no opinion, “it will all pan out in the end.” Aren’t you concerned with knowing the Truth? If your Church is wrong on this, what else is it wrong about?

Truth is important. We can’t just go along with the latest theological fad.

Hi,
You can read my response below to Deb, but I would have to ask you the same thing.

This is not a theology that makes or break my salvation. There are so many intrepretations out there and in the bible it can be proven in several directions. Since I have not studied it I cannot make an informed decision as of yet.

Either way, Christ is coming back and I concentrate on being ready for Him and being right before Him.

 

[dbaseII]

Thanks for the replies. Now if I am understanding correctly, the “Rapture” is a physical event in which Christians will be instantly teleported into heaven when Jesus Christ comes the second time. The bad people get “left behind”, so to speak and suffer? From reading the posts, it seems like this is not a universally accepted Christian doctrine (e.g., some Catholics don’t accept it). Is this just a Protestant view of Christianity, or do some Catholics accept it as well?

It is a misinterpretation of the book of Revelation and several Scripture passages taken out of context. It only became more mainstream in the 20th century with the founding of the “New Evangelicals”, a group of Christians who enjoy some popularity today because they offer a combination of little talk about sin and the “meat” of Christianity and a very entertaining worship service on Sunday. I have known Catholics to switch to a “non denominational” church (as they call themselves) because they wanted to be able to co-habit with their lovers, something which the Catholic church condemns as a serious sin.

Actually non denominational churches are NOT “non denominational” as they, loose and simple as it is, have a set group of dogmas they believe in, which usually can be expressed in 10 or less statements.

I like to distinguish between “non denomination” and “main line Protestant” (like Lutheran and Methodist)… because the non denominational churches bear little resemblance to any type of traditional Christianity whereas the mainline Protestant churches do try and teach more of the Bible (there are parts they skip over also like the 6th chapter of John for example)

As someone already pointed out, the non denominational churches do not even AGREE on the rapture (which is totally unfounded in Scripture OR tradition if you study it further). The idea of not dying and being “taken up” with no suffering, is, however, not a new idea since suffering is something none of us really like the idea of… unfortunately, the cross is a necessary part of the resurrection…why Jesus said the road to Heaven was narrow and difficult and few find it.

 

[flameburns623]

So are you saying that it doesn’t matter to you that your Church may be teaching an error, a doctrine that no Christian Church believed before the 1830’s?

You say that you have no opinion, “it will all pan out in the end.” Aren’t you concerned with knowing the Truth? If your Church is wrong on this, what else is it wrong about?

Truth is important. We can’t just go along with the latest theological fad.

Eschatology is an area of theology fraught with speculation. It is the area with the fewest ‘essential’ doctrines from a soteriological viewpoint. One must believe in the Resurrection of the dead, some to glory, and some to condemnation; and one must believe in the literal, visible return of Jesus Christ to Earth. Everything else is pretty much up for grabs: it falls in the area of ‘non-essentials’.

Please note: I didn’t say ‘unimportant’: all of God’s Truth is ‘important’; but not all that God has revealed touches directly upon the issue of salvation by God’s grace, and so speculation in some areas will not automatically or necessarily lead to heresy. This is what those who speak of ‘pan-tribulationalism’ or ‘pan-millennialism’ mean by their humorous crack about it all ‘panning out in the end’.