Can somebody help me out with Vatican II and alleged discrepancies?

[JDGaney]

Can somebody help me out with these terms that some people reject in Vatican II?

1. How do we reconcile Gregory XVI and Pius IX’s condemnation of religious liberty and Vatican II’s Human Dignity?
2. Is Ecumenism a heresy? ie, pope visiting with Muslim people? (my friend says this mocks the saints and makes the harlot drunk with their blood)
3. How do we deal with collegiality?
4. I held the position that God can save whoever He wants, such as the Good Thief on the Cross, who was told that he would be in Paradise that very day, despite not receiving Baptism or the Eucharist. My friend told me that we should then apply that to David and other Old Testament figures, with that logic. How do we determine salvation outside of the Church?
5. How can we say that God uses non-Catholic religions to save people (Protestant and pagans)?
6. Is it blasphemous to say that Muslims worship the Triune Catholic God, as they reject Jesus as the Messiah and that God does not have three natures? Is it blasphemous to say that one can achieve illumination in Buddhism? (I actually kind of remember somebody saying that those faiths just contain ELEMENTS of the Truth, but their non-Catholic faith cannot save them, only the faith of the Catholic Church, the Fullness of Truth, can save you.)
7. Is it wrong to call Protestants separated brothers and sisters? How does it come to be, now, that a Trinitarian Baptism makes you a Christian? Wouldn’t the earliest Christians have been scandalized by how we treat heretical faiths today (you don’t need baptism, faith alone saves you, the bread and wine never change substances, you can’t lose your salvation…)

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you all.

 

[aemcpa]

Can somebody help me out with these terms that some people reject in Vatican II?

1. How do we reconcile Gregory XVI and Pius IX’s condemnation of religious liberty and Vatican II’s Human Dignity? LOOOOOOONG story. There are other thread and Catholic Answers articles and tracts on it.
2. Is Ecumenism a heresy? ie, pope visiting with Muslim people? (my friend says this mocks the saints and makes the harlot drunk with their blood) Properly speaking, interreligious dialogue is the term for dealing with non-Christians; ecumenism is dealing with non-Catholic Christians. But both are acceptable and encouraged as part of the Church’s missionary effort and the universal call to evangelization. One can never compromise the truth of the Catholic faith, but we must know where people are coming from if we want to lead them to Jesus.
3. How do we deal with collegiality? I don’t know what this question means. The college of bishops in communion with Rome is the supreme authority in the Church.
4. I held the position that God can save whoever He wants, such as the Good Thief on the Cross, who was told that he would be in Paradise that very day, despite not receiving Baptism or the Eucharist. My friend told me that we should then apply that to David and other Old Testament figures, with that logic. How do we determine salvation outside of the Church? CCC 846-848. And the Church lists several Old Testament figures among the saints in the official Roman Martyrology, so before your friend tries to be more Catholic than the Pope he should probably get better information.
5. How can we say that God uses non-Catholic religions to save people (Protestant and pagans)?He doesn’t. There is no salvation outside the Church. Anybody who is saved, is saved through the Catholic Church. We don’t always know exactly how that happens.
6. Is it blasphemous to say that Muslims worship the Triune Catholic God, as they reject Jesus as the Messiah and that God does not have three natures? Is it blasphemous to say that one can achieve illumination in Buddhism? (I actually kind of remember somebody saying that those faiths just contain ELEMENTS of the Truth, but their non-Catholic faith cannot save them, only the faith of the Catholic Church, the Fullness of Truth, can save you.)God does not have three natures. He is three divine Persons with one divine Nature. The Church teaches that the Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, even if they do not fully understand Him or accept all that He has revealed about Himself. It is blasphemous to say that one can achieve illumination in Buddhism.
7. Is it wrong to call Protestants separated brothers and sisters? How does it come to be, now, that a Trinitarian Baptism makes you a Christian? Wouldn’t the earliest Christians have been scandalized by how we treat heretical faiths today (you don’t need baptism, faith alone saves you, the bread and wine never change substances, you can’t lose your salvation…)A Trinitarian baptism incorporates one into the Church and always has. That doesn’t mean we accept heresy nor admit Protestants into communion with the Church, but we must admit that they have a valid baptism because it is not essential to the sacrament that it be administered by a member of the clergy, so even those sects without apostolic succession are able to baptize.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you all.

 

[triumphguy]

Well…

It’s a deep subject!

It comes down to faith.

Do I have faith that my Church is not in error, and despite any perceived (perceived mind you!!!) discrepancies on my part, do I read what the Church teaches post 1964 as in line with and not departing from everything it said pre-1964?

And at the root of this is Christ’s promise: “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it.”

The operative word being “I” not Peter, not Pius X or Benedict XVI but Christ.

Any (and I repeat ANY) difficulty I or anybody else has with that is our own personal problem.

Pre 1964 we said “heretic,” now we say “separated brethren.” (or any of the other issues you mentioned)

Did Christ promise that He would build the Church or not? If he did then pre 1964 I would say heretic, and after 1964 I would say “separated brethren.”

If you or I find difficulty in this, then the difficulty is one of submission, NOT the Church’s teaching.

Some people will say that Vatican II was a pastoral council - but one which had 4 constitutions: Sacrosanctum concilium, Lumen Gentium, Dei Verbum, Gaudium et Spes, 9 decrees: Inter Mirifica, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Unitatis Redintegratio, Christus Dominus, Perfectae Caritatis, Optatam Totius, Apostolicam Actuositatem, Ad Gentes, Presbyterorum Ordinis, and 3 declarations: Gravissimum Educationis, Nostra Aetate, Dignitatis Humanae.

It was pastoral because it was speaking about the Church’s relationship with the world, and not specifically dealing with particular heresies/errors.

But pastoral does not mean unimportant, or even less important than doctrinal teaching.

 

[Sirach2]

Can somebody help me out with these terms that some people reject in Vatican II?

1. Is Ecumenism a heresy?
2. How do we determine salvation outside of the Church?
3. How can we say that God uses non-Catholic religions to save people (Protestant and pagans)?
4. Is it wrong to call Protestants separated brothers and sisters?

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you all.

Since most of your questions dealt with ecumenism and salvation, and following upon triumphguy’s excellent response concerning our faith and religious assent to the Magisterium, I happened upon this document in another forum today that I had never seen before, and which briefly adddress your concerns.

FIRST QUESTION
Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?
RESPONSE
The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it.

Second Question,
Response

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.

From the CDWDF. Pope Benedict XVI ratified and confirmed the responses and ordered their publication.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

This in a nutshell reaffirms the same teachings we learned in the Vatican Council II documents. Either we embrace the truth, that the Holy Spirit correctly guided over 5,000 members who voted upon these documents, or we flounder upon a sea of doubt that the enemy wastes no little time in magnifying before one’s eyes to tear down their faith.

God bless and keep you!