Can someone create an objective moral code apart from God?

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I have just got done with a discussion with an atheist. We were talking about moral truths and values. He stated that there are some moral values or truths that all people just know because of human nature, such as a man should not kill another man. I began to pose questions upon him of how this moral code is a part of human nature. I wanted to direct him to the understanding that there has to be a high being that places this code into human nature, thus natural law.

My question is this though. Was Frederick Nietzsche right? If man takes God out of morality, the next highest thing must govern human law, the human will, which leads to a subjective moral code. So, can there be objective moral code apart from God?
sidekick,
I hope there is some good in everyone. But… Only Jesus Christ saves our soul. There is not one who is good. Not one. We are all born in sin, with a sinful nature. We can certainly try to be good, but that is like trying to live one day without sin. 😉
Nietzche was an atheist.

God bless,
jean8
 
As a non-believer, I do not believe that a 100% objective (true and revlevent in every situation and circumstance) can exist. Big deal. None-the-less, I am certain that our every notion of morality comes from within our species rather than some external source. We would (and IMO do) have a moral system whether there exists a god or not.
sever,
I suppose you can develope a moral code for yourself, but it must line up with the moral code that The Lord gave us. The Ten Commandments. Do you know it? It can be found in Exodus 20 In the Bible. Do you have a Bible?
The reason I ask this question of you is, you’ve made a very important descision for about your future. You really should know all there is to know on both sides of the issue. 🙂
Pray about it. You’ll be surprised what can happen.

God bless you as you search for the truth in God’s word.
jean8
 
sever,
I suppose you can develope a moral code for yourself, but it must line up with the moral code that The Lord gave us. The Ten Commandments. Do you know it? It can be found in Exodus 20 In the Bible. Do you have a Bible?
The reason I ask this question of you is, you’ve made a very important descision for about your future. You really should know all there is to know on both sides of the issue. 🙂
Pray about it. You’ll be surprised what can happen.

God bless you as you search for the truth in God’s word.
jean8
I do have a bible. Do you have a Quran or a Book of Mormon? The 10 Comandments can be found in the book of exodus; however they were written by a man named Moses, not by a god. My days of praying are over, as I have placed all methods of deception behind me and I hope that eventually you will as well.
 
My question is this though. Was Frederick Nietzsche right? If man takes God out of morality, the next highest thing must govern human law, the human will, which leads to a subjective moral code. So, can there be objective moral code apart from God?
I think Nietzsche was half right. Yes, if God does not exist the case is very much like he, or Lucretius for that matter, describes. But God exists.
 
I do have a bible. Do you have a Quran or a Book of Mormon? The 10 Comandments can be found in the book of exodus; however they were written by a man named Moses, not by a god. My days of praying are over, as I have placed all methods of deception behind me and I hope that eventually you will as well.
severn,
God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai, Moses then took them to the people . On stone tablets.
Did you read Exodus 19-20?
I’m a christian, why would I spend money on the Quran and the book of Mormon which was written by Joseph Smith. Of course there have been many changes in the original copy. They seem to have a difficult time finding the truth. They have yet to find it.
They do not read the word of God . The Bible. See 2 Tim.3:16

God bless you as you pray about this,
jean8

PS. Look up the history of Islam if your interested. I have all the facts on this, but I’m not going to search for them now. It’s late.😉
 
I have just got done with a discussion with an atheist. We were talking about moral truths and values. He stated that there are some moral values or truths that all people just know because of human nature, such as a man should not kill another man. I began to pose questions upon him of how this moral code is a part of human nature. I wanted to direct him to the understanding that there has to be a high being that places this code into human nature, thus natural law.

My question is this though. Was Frederick Nietzsche right? If man takes God out of morality, the next highest thing must govern human law, the human will, which leads to a subjective moral code. So, can there be objective moral code apart from God?
What we call moral truths are simply evolved behaviors. We’re a pretty destructive species and we do kill each other regularly, but not all. There are still parents who kill their children, for example. I would call this a recessive behavior. If it were a dominant behavior we wouldn’t exist as a species.

I’ve always thought that the more interesting question is whether someone can create a god apart from a moral code. I don’t think that’s possible. Even an immoral god is based on an understanding of what constitutes morality.
 
Pointless debate to confuse the unwary. God is Truth. What is not Truth is a lie. Lies are from The Liar. Do not give The Liar a moment of your time. Do not engage The Liar in debate for he is very old and very clever and he wants your soul very much. All The Liar has to do is have you cast your eyes momentarily from The Truth. The Liar temps us to imagine a Truth without God. There is no Truth outside of Truth Himself. God is that Truth.
 
proof of G-d is not the question, one can ignore thomistic proofs, but one cannot reasonably deny them and still be a rationalist.

that said, i dont see how morality can be something that evolves from a worse to a better state.

i would suggest that only our perception of right and wrong, in this age heavily influenced by the media and educational system, changes.

what other mechanism would make a past morally acceptable activity unacceptable now?

and why would something unacceptable before now be acceptable?

only perception accounts for what i consistently see posed as ‘progress’
 
I believe that there are things that are true…
Why would you want to believe such a negative thing, especailly when we do not know that such a thing is true? To me; this is very disturbing. Pehaps there is something in it for you that you feel is worth the sacrifice.
One thing that is true is that most people (regardless their religious allegiance) do not wish to live in an environment where people are allowed to harm one another without consequence. .
This is basically true; but i would add, that while some people don’t want to be harmed personally and might practice acts of charity, i doubt that most people generally care about those outside their immediate family and chosen freinds, though they might like to make others think so for the sake of appearences.

The heartless truth is that people tend to do what they can get away with. Some people make sacrifices because they fear for their lives. While this can make us aware of the need for moral values, this behavior in itself is not morality and neither is it a sign that human beings are basically good. It is simply survival of the fittest in effect. Those who are not powerful enough stand in line.
(in fact the few people who do want such a thing tend to be religious extremists). .
There are violent people who use religion as a banner of truimph.
There has also been many people in history that have used atheism and naturalism as a banner of truimph and as an excuse for evil. In fact, in a world where people do not believe in the truth of moral values, there is more then enough fertile grounds for the growth of inhuman ignorance. I suggest you read history, and then you will not make such biased misrepresentations.
While I do reject universal truths in terms of morality (morality cannot be found under a microscope), I can honestly claim that the Holocaust was wrong. .
No you cannot. You can merely say that you personally dislike that kind of behavior. The holocaust, in a world without objective moral truth, is taboo; nothing more.
I reject the holocaust for the same reason that I oppose the genocide inflicted upon the Mideanites and the inhabitants of Jericho (read the OT if you are wondering about these references); a world in which such behavior is permitted is a very dangerous world for all it’s inhabitants (that would include me)…
You reject it because you fear it. This has no bearing on the truth of moral statements or behavior.
For this reason, I am actually opposed to abortion.
Good; but if there are no such thing as moral values, then your rejection of abortion is based on a subjective dislike for what you percieve as a threat to humanity and a fantasy that your life and the lives of others have intrinsic value.
I can be a victimized by a world where human life has no value.
The world in which you wish to believe in, human beings have no more objective value then an slug has; so you cannot expect people to treat your existence with any more respect then they choose to.
 
It does sound like MindOverMatter is pointing to something I have never thought of that Atheism is more emotional than rational.

Rationality is using your reason to discover truths that are already there. The truth exists and man’s reason discovers it and becomes he is able to explain it with his reason. An example is math or science. The truths of math and science have always been here. It has taken many centuries and very intelligent men to discover these truths, such as the formula to find the radius of a circle or that the earth goes around the sun. These truths were always here before man.

Now since atheism denies God, what placed moral truths into the world? Well these moral truths could not have been place before man like the mathematical truths because man was not here. It seems the argument above from atheist is as follows: well nobody wants to be harmed by another person. That just sounds like, well majority of us say this would be bad for society. How has the majority vote never declared truths? Majority of people thought slavery was ok. Does that mean the moral truth changed??

Unlike the rational that seeks the truths that are already there, the atheist can not state that moral truths have always been there and thus decided it upon the majority’s emotion to the action thus making an atheistic moral code more emotional and rational.

The reason I have brought this up in not to debunk natural law. A theist believes in natural law because God has place this moral truths or natural law in nature. Man can be rational and use his intellect to search for these truths and live by them. I just do not understand how atheist ground their moral truths. I am glad many of you in this forums have morals, but it has just sounds like it is something that was create rather than discovered.
 
What we call moral truths are simply evolved behaviors.
If God does not exist then not only is there no objective moral truth but morality itself is an illusion and surely “evolved behavior” is the only alternative. In such a universe it makes no more sense to say that a man can behave morally than to claim that animals can; they clearly have only their evolved behavior.

Although many people claim not to believe in objective truths very few actually act as if they believed what they claim. It may be necessary for every civilization that its people impose moral constraints on themselves, and it is surely better for an individual if they do - but there is no advantage to him to put limits on his own behavior. That is, it may be advantageous to be perceived to behave morally, but it is disadvantageous to actually behave morally (in a universe where God - and therefore morality - does not exist).

Ender
 
severn,
God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai, Moses then took them to the people . On stone tablets.
Did you read Exodus 19-20?
I’m a christian, why would I spend money on the Quran and the book of Mormon which was written by Joseph Smith. Of course there have been many changes in the original copy. They seem to have a difficult time finding the truth. They have yet to find it.
They do not read the word of God . The Bible. See 2 Tim.3:16

God bless you as you pray about this,
jean8

PS. Look up the history of Islam if your interested. I have all the facts on this, but I’m not going to search for them now. It’s late.😉
I am not a Christian, so why would I spend money on the bible? The fact that there are a list of comandments within the bible proves nothing. [edited]
 
proof of G-d is not the question, one can ignore thomistic proofs, but one cannot reasonably deny them and still be a rationalist.
This statement only proves that you are not rational. The Aquainian proofs of God and are simplics and proof of nothing.

The mere fact that you want an objective moral system doesn’t make it so. Certainly there is not evidence for one and certainly many of the greatest evils ever committed were committed by individuals claiming to be upholding god’s law.
 
look at what actually happens when soceities are given the oppurtunity to practice a morality seperate from G-d, you get the holocaust, mengeles’ experiments, stalins collectivisation, Maos’ cultural revolution. pol pots killing fields. etc. these societies alone have had more than a 100 million deaths in the last century.
In terms of evolutionary-materialism, there is nothing “wrong” with any of the things you mentioned. They’re all merely a part of natural laws working on matter. That’s the problem with atheistic-materalism.
 
If God does not exist then not only is there no objective moral truth but morality itself is an illusion and surely “evolved behavior” is the only alternative. In such a universe it makes no more sense to say that a man can behave morally than to claim that animals can; they clearly have only their evolved behavior.

Although many people claim not to believe in objective truths very few actually act as if they believed what they claim. It may be necessary for every civilization that its people impose moral constraints on themselves, and it is surely better for an individual if they do - but there is no advantage to him to put limits on his own behavior. That is, it may be advantageous to be perceived to behave morally, but it is disadvantageous to actually behave morally (in a universe where God - and therefore morality - does not exist).
Morality is evolved behavior. If you think behavior is just an illusion you’d have to elaborate because clearly how we behave is not an illusion. It is observable and quantifiable.
 
Can someone create an objective moral code apart from God ?

EVEN IF THEY COULD…so what???

Even if you live to be 115 years old, your life will be very short.
What is the implication of no God?
At the end of your very short life you turn into dung.
If I take that to be true, why should I care about any moral code???
Because people " must" live cooperatively in the interest of survival ?
What survival?
Actually, my experience is that the more one adheres to a moral code, the worse ones luck tends to be IN THIS LIFE.
One is more likely to meet a sociopath in the halls of power than in a prison cell block.
 
Morality is evolved behavior. If you think behavior is just an illusion you’d have to elaborate because clearly how we behave is not an illusion. It is observable and quantifiable.
I didn’t say behavior was an illusion, I said it was an illusion to believe that morality can exist in a universe without God. Can you offer any argument to the contrary?

Ender
 
The mere fact that you want an objective moral system doesn’t make it so. Certainly there is not evidence for one and certainly many of the greatest evils ever committed were committed by individuals claiming to be upholding god’s law.
There are clues that point toward theism. For instance; All healthy minded people experience a capacity for guilt, which is activated when we are given reason to believe that something about our behavior is immoral. Though it is true that one can be deceived about right and wrong, we all have a basic understanding of it. We universally agree and take for granted that there is such a thing as right, wrong, honor and virtue. Thus the mere fact that we have a moral conscience would suggest that there is such a thing as an objective wrong despite a universal disagreement about what that might be. It seems a rather bizzare coincidence that among the other senses we have a sense of guilt which, like the others, coincides with an objective reality, more specifically with that aspect of reality concerning our “free choices”. It seems to me that we have a “sixth sense”. Its called a “moral conscience”.

Therefore, simply pointing to social conditioning, does not fully explain our sense of guilt so far as it is a applied to moral law. Since although social environment can be coercive and thus encouraging toward cooperative behavior, many evils are not thwarted in this manner. Many great evils have been thwarted by the personal examination of a guilty conscience in regards to those around us. Guilt is the driving force behind much good in society. Guilt and ones belief that our sense of moral law infers and objective truth about human behavior has stopped many great evils so that you can enjoy an environment in which people infer intrinsic value on people. An environment that you take for granted.

The fact is, most of the freedoms we enjoy is based on a belief in transcendental ethics. If people avoid wrong, they avoid it because they believe that their behavior is truly wrong and thus they cannot stand to be wrong. It is not because people like being nice. The atheist is the same, accept they hold these ethical beliefs irrationally. When they are forced to see the irrationality of it, rather then accept the inference of Gods existence, they choose to disbelieve in moral truth altogether. Now imagine a world where people no longer infer those values on people; such is the danger of promoting naturalism; and even more foolish is such an endeavor when we have no evidence to support a naturalistic world view. I find it quite disturbing that people would want to promote it. Perhaps they believe naturalism provides certain freedoms that they would not have in a strictly moral climate?
What they fail to see is that they enjoy many freedoms because of the influence of Christianity and those belief systems that infer the existence of a transcendent objective good. They will not realize that it is largely our belief in moral truth that supports civilized society, until it is too late.

Neither does evolution explain anything. It explain how qualities are activated by natural events; but natural qualities like mind, emotion, and the like, can only be explained fully by the root cause of all reality. Evolution has little to say about the ultimate origin of feelings, emotion, desire, guilt, love. And when i look at these things, it is hard for me to imagine that the root cause of all being is anything but personal in nature.
 
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