Can someone explain courting?

[Moscati]

That is not what happens if you don’t date and only engage in courting, courtships generally best last around a year. If you don’t know what it is you are commenting on why comment?

I am happily married to a wonderful lady, I met that lady and figured out she would make a great wife by courting, courting works its as simple as that.

Dating is treating causally something that is to serious to mess around with, people kill themselves over this stuff but your just going to fool around with other people for your own enjoyment?

Better to avoid it all until your ready to take a relationship all the way to its natural conclusion, which is marriage, upon finding the right woman.

Other people are not merely learning aids for you to gain experience on or pawns to be used for your own amusement.

It is also much easier to avoid falling in love in the first place than to be stuck in the dating stage for years due to an inability to marry because of finances, been still in education etc etc. Most secular couples get around this by simply acting married even though they aren’t and using artificial means to avoid the children that would otherwise naturally result, Catholics do not have that option.

Do yourself and any girl you come into contact with a favour and wait until you are ready.

Perhaps we need to better define ‘courting’. What did your courtship look like? How did it work? In my understanding, it presumes a social structure that may not exist. With my family situation, my parents were very hostile to my fiance because we were both considering Catholicism when we met, and encouraged each other on that path. Trying to discern whether or not we should get married in the middle of all that mess would have been impossible.

And I’d beg to differ about avoiding a relationship simply because it may be difficult, and one may have to wait years before marriage is possible. That period, for me anyway, has been like the novitiate–it’s incredibly helpful for discerning a true vocation to marriage! Is this really what we’re called to do? Are we willing to make it work for the rest of our lives? It’s given us time to talk about everything. Maybe I’m just slow . . . but I’ve needed every bit of our three-year relationship, even though only after I graduate this year will we be ‘ready’, practically speaking.

 

[VonDerTann]

Some miscellaneous thoughts on the whole “courting thing”:

Generally, I am opposed to an antiquated “courtship model” of how we “ought to meet our spouse.”

Why? I think in large part because it is…antiquated. Some people still may adhere to a system where a man goes out with a woman along with a chaperone…and spends evenings with her family…etc…but by and large that’s not really ‘par for the course’ any more. That sort of thing was more common when women were not in the work force…and often lacked the educational background they can get today, etc., and which will help them discern a good guy fror a bad one. Speaking only for myself: If some young man always wanted to spend time with me, my wife, etc., AND our daughter, rather than with her, in all candor, I’d find it completely weird. I’d think he was trying to ingratiate himself with me (think Eddie Haskell…some of you will get the reference )…or was lacking in self-confidence, in that he feel himself able to be alone around her…or whatever.

One aspect of parenting that IMHO is sorely overlooked is the skill of teaching our children to find quality mates as they get to the “age when that is expected”…so they won’t NEED a ‘chaperone,’ or a whole coterie of people to help them make a choice.

As we go through teens, 20s, etc., we are expected to learn how to interact with others of the opposite gender; learn the differences between men & women, etc. That’s part of growing up. IMHO, learning how to interact with the opposite gender is part of maturing, to the point where we can be prepared for relationships and eventually marriage…or at least, healthy relationships with other people. How do we get that, these days? One word: Dating…or, in other words, by being alone with a person of the opposite sex, who you are attracted to, and vice versa, doing something ‘fun together’ so you find out about the person, and vice versa.

That said, IMHO there is a “range of reasonableness” for learning these things. It’s normal to hit adolescence and start to like the opposite gender…so, in high school, we have proms, etc…because those events are “normal,” and part of the process of learning how to interact with others, ask someone out, etc. However, it’s not really “normal” to be 45 & have never learned to interact with a person of the opposite gender, such that you can ask someone out for coffee. If you don’t want to, once again, fine – but you should be able to, and know how to, if you DO want to, long before you’re 45…because learning how to is part of being a healthy person.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Courting in the early stages does not need to look much different from dating.

It is the circumstances and the intentions of the two people involved that are the difference.

For man to enter upon a courtship he must be eligible for marriage and have honourable intentions towards the woman.

To be eligible to marry he must not be under any canonical impediment and should be in a position to provide for a wife and children.

Honourable intentions are the intention to marry the lady in question if they prove to be a suitable match or to end the courtship at the soonest possible moment if he becomes utterly convinced that they are not, and to respect her chastity until they are wed if that proves to be the case.

So in simplest terms the motivation for courtship is the seeking of a spouse, while dating on the other hand merely means seeking personal pleasure, marriage been a mere afterthought if thought of at all.

While courting is motivated by the honourable intention of caring for the woman, looking to make a commitment to her and looking to start a family, dating involves the dishonourable intentions of merely using other people for your own gain.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Some miscellaneous thoughts on the whole “courting thing”:

Generally, I am opposed to an antiquated “courtship model” of how we “ought to meet our spouse.”

Why? I think in large part because it is…antiquated. Some people still may adhere to a system where a man goes out with a woman along with a chaperone…and spends evenings with her family…etc…but by and large that’s not really ‘par for the course’ any more. That sort of thing was more common when women were not in the work force…and often lacked the educational background they can get today, etc., and which will help them discern a good guy fror a bad one. Speaking only for myself: If some young man always wanted to spend time with me, my wife, etc., AND our daughter, rather than with her, in all candor, I’d find it completely weird. I’d think he was trying to ingratiate himself with me (think Eddie Haskell…some of you will get the reference )…or was lacking in self-confidence, in that he feel himself able to be alone around her…or whatever.

One aspect of parenting that IMHO is sorely overlooked is the skill of teaching our children to find quality mates as they get to the “age when that is expected”…so they won’t NEED a ‘chaperone,’ or a whole coterie of people to help them make a choice.

As we go through teens, 20s, etc., we are expected to learn how to interact with others of the opposite gender; learn the differences between men & women, etc. That’s part of growing up. IMHO, learning how to interact with the opposite gender is part of maturing, to the point where we can be prepared for relationships and eventually marriage…or at least, healthy relationships with other people. How do we get that, these days? One word: Dating…or, in other words, by being alone with a person of the opposite sex, who you are attracted to, and vice versa, doing something ‘fun together’ so you find out about the person, and vice versa.

That said, IMHO there is a “range of reasonableness” for learning these things. It’s normal to hit adolescence and start to like the opposite gender…so, in high school, we have proms, etc…because those events are “normal,” and part of the process of learning how to interact with others, ask someone out, etc. However, it’s not really “normal” to be 45 & have never learned to interact with a person of the opposite gender, such that you can ask someone out for coffee. If you don’t want to, once again, fine – but you should be able to, and know how to, if you DO want to, long before you’re 45…because learning how to is part of being a healthy person.

The main reason for chaperones was to prevent kidnap and/or rape of your daughter, back then daughters and their virginity were held in far more esteem than they are today, I for one do not think this lack of concern today is a good thing.

 

[VonDerTann]

Chevalier says some things:

“2. “Courting” is not a moral commandment of Catholicism. “Courting” as some people understand it is a mating ritual from 19th century and earlier/a bit later. The actual moral requirements we have here are charity (love of neighbour) and chastity. Respect for parents, families or authority may play a role. There is no commandment to be conservative and copy behaviours from 19th century novels.”

–I agree with this.

“6. If you’re in highschool, it’s hard to be told that you shouldn’t date and I suppose some psychologists or other wise people would react adversely to this supposed deprivation of some normal human experience. To be honest, I don’t know. Maybe they’d be right, although I react allergically to the idea of romantic relationships being had for jolly fun and for the sake of learning about the world.”

–I somewhat disagree, based on my above post.

“What I do know is that I regret the time and effort spent chasing girls instead of studying when I was younger than say, 16-17.”

–Funny, I think I spent too much time studying, & not enough time chasing girls…so long as the ‘chasing’ is done…uh…chastely!

“It wouldn’t hurt (and I’d strongly recommend) to get hold of a good priest, especially a wise and orthodox one, and get advice from him in this regard, especially as it involves your faith and your relationship with God. You can do it, their pastoral activity does involve talking to people like that.”

–I’m sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with this. I think a priest is not a good person to go to as to what amounts to dating advice. If I want dating advice, I would not go to someone who has sworn off dating forever. IMHO, priests are not ‘cure-all’ sounding boards for whatever we need advice about. In fairness, Chevalier didn’t say they were. IMHO, however, the person who we need to be able to look to for these issues is a parent…or, barring that, an uncle/aunt…or someone who has been married happily for 25 years…NOT a priest.

"7. As far as “courting” goes, be careful not to fall for the trap of the older the better or the more restrictive the better etc. Super-hyper-restrictive parenting doesn’t result in the best-adjusted people we know and super-hyper-restrictive dating rules don’t necessarily result in super-happy marriages. I suppose some people would even have you wear 19th century suits and speak Victorian English while on the chase, but that has little to do with morality, it has more to do with conservatism, which is independent from religion. On the other hand, just because something is an old custom, even an abandoned one, doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant. It’s basically that 19th century is not the magical Old England Golden Age kind of thing in which everything was good. It was a period of time with its own problems just like the current one. Time goes forward, not backward.

–I wholeheartedly agree with this one, very much so.

Finally, Advocatus writes, “courtships generally best last around a year.”

-I’m sorry, I respectfuly don’t believe there is any real hard & fast rule to this.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

There is no hard and fast rule, that is why I said generally, it is a guideline.

Still saying that the Church always advised to avoid long engagements for obvious reasons.

After a year or two at most if you don’t know whether you would like to marry someone its safe to say you probably shouldn’t marry them.

 

[VonDerTann]

I’m sorry, Advocatus, I must respectfully disagree with some of what you write:

“For man to enter upon a courtship he must be eligible for marriage and have honourable intentions towards the woman…So in simplest terms the motivation for courtship is the seeking of a spouse, while dating on the other hand merely means seeking personal pleasure, marriage been a mere afterthought if thought of at all…While courting is motivated by the honourable intention of caring for the woman, looking to make a commitment to her and looking to start a family, dating involves the dishonourable intentions of merely using other people for your own gain.”

–You equate ‘personal pleasure’ with something which must by necessity be bad. That is not so. Things are often never as ‘clear-cut’ as this. Why can’t a boy & girl just go “on a few dates” because of many good reasons, without a) needing to have to spectre of “MARRIAGE!” hanging over their heads; or b) without ‘having fun together’ constitute 'using the partner for their own gain.?"

–We can “date” for lots of good reasons, including basic human companionship. People often don’t like to do things alone…or they just want someone to talk to…or they are invited to a socal function where having a ‘date’ makes it easier/more fun to attend…or they just like the other person’s company. Moreover, in the USA, what about a "senior prom"in high school…are we not allowed to go with a date, unless we intend to marry them?!? I’m sorry, I just think that’s way, way too restrictive a way of viewing this world we live in.

–Finally, if the original purpose of chaperone is to prevent a kidnapping - and you may be right about this - then in this day that would basically never be needed.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

I also said rape, which I’m sure you know does still happen quite a lot actually, much more so than in the days of chaperones I would imagine.

As to why people shouldn’t mess other people about by taking them on dates and then dumping them because it was all just a bit of fun I would think the reason is obvious.

And as for you description of marriage as a spectre hanging over someone’s head as if it was some great evil to be feared I am frankly appalled to hear a Catholic talk about such a wonderful sacrament in that way.

 

[Coco82]

I think Von DerTann has many good points. Why should people have to wait till they’re ready to marry to court or date? Why can’t it just be for companionship or to have someone to do something with like go to a movie or a dance? Marriage, while good and all, shouldn’t be the only reason to see someone, Plus, not all marriages last. So just because you marry someone doesn’t ensure anything.

 

[Havard]

It’s not black and white. We can adapt, and make use of both modern and traditional conventions.

I like the that the courtship model involves the lady’s family in the process. But that can be accomplished by meeting them and spending time with them once in a while, instead of all the time. One-on-one dates can still be the norm.

I also like that the courtship model is focused on marriage. As far as I can tell, there are three possible relationships single Catholic men and women can be in:

1. the platonic friendship,
2. the relationship that is discerning marriage, and
3. the relationship that is preparing for marriage (engagement).

I think the problem is that some people get skittish when they hear marriage uttered too early on, so they want to add a relationship stage between 1) and 2) which is more ambiguous. Essentially it’s, “Let’s casually flirt with the idea of formally discerning marriage.” Is that really necessary? I don’t think so.

Why can’t it just be for companionship or to have someone to do something with like go to a movie or a dance?

We can do that. In a platonic friendship!

 

[Havard]

I think Von DerTann has many good points. Why should people have to wait till they’re ready to marry to court or date? Why can’t it just be for companionship or to have someone to do something with like go to a movie or a dance?

We can do that. In a platonic friendship!

 

[agapewolf]

Why can’t a boy & girl just go “on a few dates” because of many good reasons, without a) needing to have to spectre of “MARRIAGE!” hanging over their heads; or b) without ‘having fun together’ constitute 'using the partner for their own gain.?"

Because they create bonds…then break them, and give a portion of their heart away. Then do it again, and again. It becomes serial dating, and then when one finally wants to get married, they only have a small part of a broken heart left to give, among all the other garbarge and baggage that comes with the past “dating” relationships.

Thinking about marriage doesn’t “hang over ones head”

–We can “date” for lots of good reasons, including basic human companionship. People often don’t like to do things alone…or they just want someone to talk to…or they are invited to a socal function where having a ‘date’ makes it easier/more fun to attend…or they just like the other person’s company

This is friendship. Not dating.

When friendship starts to have romantic tendencies, this is a time that it should be evaluated as if it should continue as a courtship or just remain as a friendship.

 

[Charlotte12]

I definitely agree with those who say that “courting” is preferable to “dating” because in courtship, marriage is acknowledged as a potential outcome of the relationship. I feel that it is dangerous to embark upon exclusive relationships with people whom you are very sure will not end up being your future spouse - aside from all of the potential pitfalls to chastity, it’s a lot of emtional expenditure on something that is bound to fail.

The issue I have, though, is with the idea that one should not begin courting until one is in a position to marry. Does that mean that those who meet someone very special in college - someone who meets all of the criteria of a potential spouse - but who cannot marry within a year or two due to educational and financial circumstances, are doing something wrong by pursuing a relationship anyway? I think that some couples are meant, for whatever reason, to endure a longer period of waiting in order to gain maturity, wisdom, and an even greater appreciation of chaste love.

 

[chevalier]

Agapewolf said it very well. There is no need for the light-hearted dates to cross the line of friendship. I obviously agree that there can’t really be some very strong pressures right from the beginning and dating is not an arranged marriage process, but “fun” is just a side-effect of it, it doesn’t justify e.g. dating someone one knows one would never want to marry (except maybe some very special circumstances in which we’re convincing someone to change mind on an important issue). My chief problem with it is not the fact people go for coffee or a dance and talk and even flirt, but the problem is that they bond… or, in case of “fun”–there’s basically happy kissing without much responsibility attached, with which I have a problem on principle. I’m not 100% sure on this issue as I once was, maybe I’m being too restrictive or too serious, but I can’t stomach the idea. Plus, it does seem to be use. Not use in the sexual sense, but use in the sense of fun. The fun and the learning takes precedence before the person and the person becomes a source of fun and knowledge and experience in a way that ignores the person’s unique personality, being reduced to a specimen of the opposite sex.

 

[Havard]

Put another way: of what value is a kiss, if there is no significance behind it? It becomes a trivial gesture, or worse, just another a way to pass the time. Best save it for when it means something.

 

[chevalier]

Put another way: of what value is a kiss, if there is no significance behind it? It becomes a trivial gesture, or worse, just another a way to pass the time. Best save it for when it means something.

Precisely. If it’s stripped of value (ergo means nothing), then where from is the incentive to have it, i.e. why is it important to have it? Because it feels nice? IMHO not reason enough. Because it signifies appreciation and a feeling? I understand but I would be wary of the perceived nobility of supposedly selfless (i.e. not requiring commitment) manifestations of that kind being shared freely or with multiple people in the same time period. I can understand kissing a friend or even stranger on a particular notion where formal commitment isn’t there, but not really as a recreational or social activity. On the other hand, if kissing were to be something done in the formal commitment as a way of exhibiting it, then surely it would lose much attractiveness and much point (generally, there is the marriage act that you need to do in marriage, but there’s no counterpart at earlier stages of relationships, so it’s not like kissing is to dating what sex is to marriage). So all in all, there needs to be some mystery, some naturalcy etc. to it, but I think this also requires the lack of a casual approach to it.

As for what VonDerTann said, I agree I give the “tal to the priest” advice too often perhaps. However, I mean talking to them for religious advice, morality matters in dating, not the “how to do” ones. An aunt or uncle won’t help you deal with what’s okay and what’s not okay do, but a priest will be prepared to do so, especially one that teaches religious education in highschool or some other school.

 

[Emily2009]

My boyfriend and I call what we are in a courtship, be it a long one. But, we were really young when we started “dating.” Basically, we were friends with an extra title…he wasn’t even allowed kissing me for almost nine months after we were ‘offically’ dating. He has been courting me for almost 26 months, now. And, when financially able, we shall become engaged. We both strongly believe we will get married someday, potentially [and probably] before even I graduate from college (he won’t graduate until after I do, as I’m 19 1/2 months older than him). So, a long courtship is necessary. It’ll be probably closer to 2 1/2 or three years of “courting” then an engagment that is hopefully only slightly longer than a year. We’ll have been together four years if we can get married when we hope to…finances are all that’s holding us back. Well, that and the fact that he’s still a little under 18. No worries, though, when we get married he’ll be almost 20 and I’ll have just turned 21

 

[Coco82]

What Emily is doing makes sense. I don’t think this time limit is necessary because everyone’s circumstances are different, but that model makes sense. However, there may be people with similar intentions who plan to get married, but in the process they grow apart or something happens and they realize the person isn’t right for them after all. Now, in that case it’s better that one find that out before rushing in to marriage and then divorcing esp. if kids are involved. These are delicate matters, and one shouldn’t feel any pressure to act in a particularly rigid fashion in finding their mate. It takes time and one needs to be 100% positive that they are right for each other. On another note, I have no problem w/kissing for fun. Some people it takes longer to mature and get certain things our of their system. I’d rather have a person do that when they’re young than when they’re older and married.

 

[agapewolf]

On another note, I have no problem w/kissing for fun. Some people it takes longer to mature and get certain things our of their system. I’d rather have a person do that when they’re young than when they’re older and married.

Good to know how value-less and meaningless your kisses are. I dare you to tell that to every girl you want to kiss (I’m assuming you are male because…well…because)…

Tell them, I don’t mind kissing for fun. I’m getting it out of my system…it means nothing.

ick. no thanks. And you’re in grad school? grow up.

 

[LilyElain]

What Emily is doing makes sense. I don’t think this time limit is necessary because everyone’s circumstances are different, but that model makes sense. However, there may be people with similar intentions who plan to get married, but in the process they grow apart or something happens and they realize the person isn’t right for them after all. Now, in that case it’s better that one find that out before rushing in to marriage and then divorcing esp. if kids are involved. These are delicate matters, and one shouldn’t feel any pressure to act in a particularly rigid fashion in finding their mate. It takes time and one needs to be 100% positive that they are right for each other. On another note, I have no problem w/kissing for fun. Some people it takes longer to mature and get certain things our of their system. I’d rather have a person do that when they’re young than when they’re older and married.

I think that is one of the main differences when this subject comes up…
Physical interaction causes a bond between two people…kissing “casually” included…so doing this “for fun” really does cause hurt even if unintended. If on the other hand one has become so numb to that bond because of repetition, that is not good either. Then what does one have to give your spouse…? A numb “it does not matter” feeling towards him or her…
So my thoughts are that courting tends to describe in my mind a type of " dating" where there is less physical contact allowing the couple to get to know each other before that bond confuses the emotions…as well as allowing the family to be involved somewhat to see the person’s interactions with others. Hence I am pro-courting per say…