Can someone explain the blind Muslim hatred for Israel??

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estesbob said:
The charter of the elected Govt of the Paelstinians calls for the elimninaton of Israel, as do the Govts of all the countires surrounding them.Is that a basis for peaceful co-existence?
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Did you read my post? You obviously didn’t since I said there are people on both sides who are blocking real efforts to make peace happen. However, you refuse to acknowledge the actions that Israel and West take to also prevent a equitable solution for the Palestinians and the Israelis. This is the problem with many in the West and this is partly why the problems of the Middle East will continue. Neither wants to take blame. Both sides want to blame the other.

I simply answered why most Muslims are critical of Israel.
 
NotWorthy said:
Could it have something to do with Isaac and Ishmael?

Could it have even more to do with Mohammed and Jerusalem?
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I think both of these are true, but one must go back and study the story if Isaac and Ishmael to really understand the origins of this conflict. Arabia, the descendents of Ishmael, have been at enmnity with the sons of Isaac for millenia.
 
Would someone please tell the Muslims that their Father Abraham (and our patriarch too) was from Ur (present day Iraq). He is the father of Isaac ( the child of the Promise) and Ishmael ( the child where the rot started).
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11042
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There is no people on earth that have a greater historical legal and moral right to their land then the Jews. Remarkably people like yourself believe that all groups have a right to self determination except the Jewish people. The reality is that exactly those are the people that make the country of Israel so essential.

Just to set the record straight the antizionist orthodox groups are neither representative not the majority of orthodox judaism. (Actually your referring to some ultaorthodox groupings).
 
chosen_people said:
There is no people on earth that have a greater historical legal and moral right to their land then the Jews. Remarkably people like yourself believe that all groups have a right to self determination except the Jewish people. The reality is that exactly those are the people that make the country of Israel so essential.

Just to set the record straight the antizionist orthodox groups are neither representative not the majority of orthodox judaism. (Actually your referring to some ultaorthodox groupings).
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NO group of people has any “moral right” or “historical right” to ANY piece of land. Land is given to mankind as common property. Since the destruction of the Temple, Israel is no more. Modern day “Judaism” is a false religion, an invention, a heresy, and has no bearing in Christianity. The Jews, as a race of people, are not “God’s Chosen People”, as there is no more trace of the Twelve Tribes, no “race of people”, and, most importantly, there is no more Temple. It was destroyed almost 2,000(!) years ago, never to be built again, as the New Temple is the Body of Jesus, God Incarnate, and can only be found in The Most Blessed Sacrament.

Also, by definition, Orthodox is anti-Zionist. If one is a Zionist, they aren’t Orthodox, no matter what they may tell others and themselves.
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
NO group of people has any “moral right” or “historical right” to ANY piece of land. Land is given to mankind as common property. Since the destruction of the Temple, Israel is no more. Modern day “Judaism” is a false religion, an invention, a heresy, and has no bearing in Christianity. The Jews, as a race of people, are not “God’s Chosen People”,
.
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I think you might be thinking that the people who are somewhat more supportive of Israel over Palestinians are supporting Israel for the same reason fundamentalist are, but I don’t think this is true, at least not in this forum.

Also I’m pretty sure God does not break covenants with His people, and that they are still God’s chosen, its just that the gentiles are now included. Maybe I’m wrong as to what you mean by ‘modern’ Judaism, but Judaism itself seems to be given some legitimacy in the Catechism 839. Of course their error hinges on their rejection of Christ, and one finds salvation from the Church.
 
Dranu said:
Judaism itself seems to be given some legitimacy in the Catechism 839
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“The Jewish People”, as defined in paragraph 839 of the Catechism, are a distinct race of people that was dissolved by the Destruction of Jerusalem (and the Temple) in 70 AD, and later after the bar Kokhba rebellion in 135 AD.

There is no longer any trace of “Jewish race”, and the modern religion of “Judaism” was developed among the few Rabbis and their followers around the Roman Empire and it’s remnants over a thousand years.

The Torah was copied accurately over and over, but the theology was funneled through the remaining Rabbis after both 70 AD and 135 AD. Judaism today is NOT the ancient religion of the Hebrews, it is NOT the ancient religion practiced by Jesus and the Apostles. It IS a shade of that religion, and is as close to that religion as our Catholicism is, but, as Catholics, we believe that our Faith is a reveled continuation of the Faith of the Hebrews, whereas modern Judaism is a perversion of it.
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
NO group of people has any “moral right” or “historical right” to ANY piece of land. Land is given to mankind as common property. Since the destruction of the Temple, Israel is no more. Modern day “Judaism” is and has no bearing in Christianity. The Jews, as a race of people, are not “God’s Chosen People”, as there is no more trace of the Twelve Tribes, no “race of people”, and, most importantly, there is no more Temple. It was destroyed almost 2,000(!) years ago, never to be built again, as the New Temple is the Body of Jesus, God Incarnate, and can only be found in The Most Blessed Sacrament.

Also, by definition, Orthodox is anti-Zionist. If one is a Zionist, they aren’t Orthodox, no matter what they may tell others and themselves.
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Thank you for sharing your unique perspective on orthodox Judaism and Zionism. I also thank you for your views on the right of self determination as well as your views about Jews as " a false religion, an invention, a heresy".

My right to practice and believe in my religion freely and in safety, to bring up my children as Jews in their historic homeland is of course not contigent on what you believe or your attitudes towards my people, my religion, or my country. After two thousand years of persecutions the modern state of Israel protects my people from fanatical religious bigots like yourself.
 
chosen_people said:
After two thousand years of persecutions the modern state of Israel protects my people from fanatical religious bigots like yourself.
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No, ersatz-Israel doesn’t protect [all of the] Jews. You’re protected in Israel if you belong to the “protected class”. Otherwise, you are just more vermin to be dealt with, no more respected than the homeless Arabs called “Palestinians”. Ersatz-Israel is a socialist state, serving the interests of the socialists in charge of it, and their patrons. To believe otherwise is to deny reality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
No, they are not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

There are plenty of other examples, if needed.
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None necessary. But from the first web-site:
Israel lost significant standing and credibility in its relations with the United Kingdom and the United States that would take years to repair.
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This would imply that the relations has been repaird with our ally, Israel.

Regarding Israel spying on the United States: :eek:
If the United States is not spying on each and every one of it’s allies, I will eat my shoes. Why should Israel not be doing the same?

Yes, I know it seems dirty, but that’s life in the Secular world.
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
No, ersatz-Israel doesn’t protect [all of the] Jews. You’re protected in Israel if you belong to the “protected class”. Otherwise, you are just more vermin to be dealt with, no more respected than the homeless Arabs called “Palestinians”. Ersatz-Israel is a socialist state, serving the interests of the socialists in charge of it, and their patrons. To believe otherwise is to deny reality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan
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Well first of all you believe in replacement theology which while being your right is not to the best of my knowledge in line with current Catholic teachings. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m not quite sure who the “vermin” are in your post that “need to be dealt with”? (in case you didn’t know neither Jews or Arabs are “vermin” nor are democratically elected leaders and governments of Israel)

Israel is a democracy. In the same way Americans switch leaders between republicans and democrats, citizens of Israel, both Jew and Arab, vote for the political parties of their choice. The Likud party which has held power off and on since 1977 is hardly socialist. The economy is predominantly a free capatalist economy.

The article you referred to details the decision of the democratically elected government of Israel to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza including the removal of all Israeli citizens and the destruction of all Israeli towns. You are correct that the removal of Israeli’s from their homes was traumatic to them and to the country.

The Israeli government sought by unilateral withdrawl to promote the peace process allowing the Palestinian’s full and complete control over Gaza and themselves. To this end Israel facilitated Palestinian elections. The Palestinians instead of voting for peace gave a majority to the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist Hamas party which rejects any and all comprimise with Israel and demands the destruction of Israel by force. Missles from Gaza rain down daily on Israel. Hamas members are engaged with fighting the rival Fatah party. Needless to say most of the Palestinian’s killed this year in Gaza have been killed in internal Palestinian fighting.

Let’s be honest here. Your problem isn’t with Israel its with the Jews who rejected your beliefs and whom you no doubt think are cursed because of it. The Jews reestablishing sovereignity in the homeland doesn’t fit with your scenerio and their being there makes it hard to exterminate “the vermin”.
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11042
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Friday January 16, 2004

U.S. concludes 1967 Liberty ship attack an act of negligence

by barry schweid
the associated press

washington | Reviewing documents covering 36 years, amid a lack of consensus, a State Department official concluded Monday that Israel’s attack on the U.S. spy ship Liberty during the 1967 Six-Day War was an act of Israeli negligence.

**The United States also was negligent, the official maintained, for failing to notify Israel that the electronic intelligence-gathering ship was cruising international waters off the Egyptian coast and for failing to withdraw the Liberty from the war zone. **
A daylong conference that studied fresh documents as well as the established record failed to produce a consensus for any of three views voiced most often: Israel intentionally attacked what it knew to be a ship of the U.S. Navy, the attack was accidental, or the attack resulted from faulty judgment.

Thirty-four Americans were killed in the June 8, 1967, incident, and more than 170 were wounded.

Israel long has maintained that the attack was a case of mistaken identity, an explanation the Johnson administration did not challenge formally. Israel said its forces thought the Liberty was an Egyptian horse carrier, apologized to the United States and paid almost $13 million in compensation, some to victims or their families
 
FaithBW said:
Did you read my post? You obviously didn’t since I said there are people on both sides who are blocking real efforts to make peace happen. However, you refuse to acknowledge the actions that Israel and West take to also prevent a equitable solution for the Palestinians and the Israelis. This is the problem with many in the West and this is partly why the problems of the Middle East will continue. Neither wants to take blame. Both sides want to blame the other.

I simply answered why most Muslims are critical of Israel.
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I am still wating for you to tell us how one negotiates with countrys who vowed to wipe them off the face of the earth? One side wants peace-the other side wnats to wie thme off the face of the earth and you say they are both to blame?
 
Catholic_Hammer said:
“The Jewish People”, as defined in paragraph 839 of the Catechism, are a distinct race of people that was dissolved by the Destruction of Jerusalem (and the Temple) in 70 AD, and later after the bar Kokhba rebellion in 135 AD.

There is no longer any trace of “Jewish race”, and the modern religion of “Judaism” was developed among the few Rabbis and their followers around the Roman Empire and it’s remnants over a thousand years.

The Torah was copied accurately over and over, but the theology was funneled through the remaining Rabbis after both 70 AD and 135 AD. Judaism today is NOT the ancient religion of the Hebrews, it is NOT the ancient religion practiced by Jesus and the Apostles. It IS a shade of that religion, and is as close to that religion as our Catholicism is, but, as Catholics, we believe that our Faith is a reveled continuation of the Faith of the Hebrews, whereas modern Judaism is a perversion of it.
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hola Catholic Hammer,

the Catechism says nothing about a ‘dissolved race.’ the Jews in the Catechism at 839-840 are the Jewish people of old and today (continuity).
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
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The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
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840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
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please discuss this with your bishop at his earliest convenience, your position on this matter might be incredulity.

Dominus tecum
 
lightofeyes said:
Simply because Israel has occupied Muslims lands and they kill Muslims everyday they destroy their homes upon them, they kill kids, women…
Simply Israel is illegal country it has been established by killing people.

Check the following small samples:

answering-christianity.com/pali_torture.htm

revisionisthistory.org/palestine46.html

revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html

allaahuakbar.net/jew/israeli_massacres.htm
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The 1st and 4th links you mention here are Muslim propaganda sites, and as I said before Muslims have already proven themselves unable to view anything relating to Jews and Israel with any kind of objectivity… looking into these would be about as useful as looking at Jack Chick pamphlets to find out about Catholicism.

The 2nd and 3rd links point to a website whose author believes that the Jewish religion is “an organized crime syndicate”. I think that pretty well speaks for itself. :rolleyes: Plus, why would you expect me to take proponents of “revisionist history” as anything but a joke? You’ve gotta be kidding me here…
 
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