I think the argument there was not that a doctor should be obliged to do it but to at lease refer to someone (i.e. another doctor) who would. Aside from which–again (I hope) without getting into the issue as such–abortion may be a better example for you than the pill. Speaking strictly it seems it would have to fall under the rubric of ‘medical care.’
I’m confused by your use of the word safe. how is something that is SUPPOSED TO KILL YOU ever considered safe? But that’s not here nor there I suppose.
“To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.” - G.K. Chesterton.
I would like to start by saying how sorry I am for your loss. I know that this is an issue about which you are passionate, and rightfully so.I’m confused by your use of the word safe. how is something that is SUPPOSED TO KILL YOU ever considered safe? But that’s not here nor there I suppose.
What are you suggesting regarding psychological counseling? For starters, most of the people I know who’ve committed suicide HAD undergone psychological counseling. What would the counselor determine, exactly? If the person’s life sucked enough that he should end it?
What does a death with dignity mean to you, exaclty? I’m very curious.
I walked in on my boyfriend, hanged. Was that dignified? Do you think this would have been less horrific if, perhaps, he had downed some pills in a doctor’s office?
Surely you’ve been touched by suicide, I don’t know anyone who hasn’t, really. You’re really okay with suicide? You’re really okay with a loved one taking their own life? I’m guessing yes, since this is one of the last fights of freedom of which you are a big supporter.
And what of those who want to commit suicide but their friends don’t want them to. I remember one evening in particular, some friends and I were hanging out, and our friend Izzy didn’t show up. This was odd. We started talking, and at first one person said ‘He said something strange to me the other day’ and then another, and then another, and then I called 911 and told the police I thought someone was about to commit suicide. We all rushed over there too, but the police of course could get there much more quickly. He had, indeed overdosed (you can’t actually think it’s difficult to kill yourself. Google will tell you how to do it quickly and painlessly. So not hard. ) anyway, the police got there, got him to the hospital, where they pumped his stomach and he eventually recovered.
That was 12 years ago now. He owns a bike shop now, is married, has three kids.
Anyway, you understand that in your world, the one where suicide is a right, my friend Izzy wouldn’t have made it. You realize that, right? The police would have had NO RIGHT whatsoever to intervene. None. No crime being committed. Surely, he would have gotten all of the right paperwork (he had convinced his doctor to give him the extra pills. Surely faking for a psychologist wouldn’t be a stretch for his acting skills either.)
Are you okay with that? Are you okay with the idea that someone can take their own life, and leave the lives of their loved ones in shreds? I can only say that those who think suicide is a victimless crime surely haven’t had anyone close go through with one.
I agree with G.K. Chesterton, and object to you trying to use that analogy as an equivilent.
I have to disagree. I’m pretty sure that people who have trouble committing suicide either don’t really want to (i.e., crimes of passion type of situations, as opposed to ‘first-degree’ self-murder), or they are really dumb. I just don’t see it as a function of toughness. It’s much more likely to be a lack of toughness, the kind of realistic grit to do the job right. The toughness of our species really contrasts with the fragility of individuals of our species. (I’d say mosquitos are a tough species too, but one swat and an individual mosquito is done for.)
Right, but my point had nothing to do with forcing doctors to do perform any particular medical procedure. It had to do with your ill-considered use of the term “medical care.” Do you think Botox injections, for example, for old women who don’t want to look so old is “medical care” in the sense in which it is a doctor’s duty to ‘provide’ (at least by referral) medical care?
And when has the Catholic Church claimed that all of its followers perfectly use, 100% of the time, all of those superior morals and ethics?
(Maybe I’d better finish this argument, in case some people are unable to see for themselves how it goes…)
I mean biologically we’re tough, as individuals. I’ve given examples before of people who attempt suicide and critically fail. I’m talking about a brilliant young man who didn’t hang himself ‘properly’ and ended up with sever brain damage and is functionally retarded, the woman who tried to shoot herself and is now missing most of her jaw or the man who jumped of too short of a cliff and is now bound to a wheelchair.
That is not a point of argument with me. Perhaps you should look back to what I actually was saying.
Are you telling me these are cases of attempted ‘first-degree’ self-murder? That what these individuals really wanted was to go to a death-care clinic, or perhaps to hire a professional hit-man, and be put down ‘safely’ and legally, but they oh-so-sadly weren’t offered this option, and so did the best they could, acting on their own, which unfortunately wasn’t good enough, and this because, although perfectly competent, they were ‘tough’ individuals?? (I have a real hard time swallowing that, but I await your response.)
My point isn’t that people are competent; unless one’s a hangman one doesn’t know how to properly tie a noose, a person unfamiliar with neuroanatomy may not know that the more important part of the brain at which to aim and someone who doesn’t know physics or human biology may not know what sort of distance would kill someone. My point is competent or not people try to kill themselves and assuming it’s not a symptom of acute depression or an anxiety disorder or momentary frustration about losing a job/girlfriend/boyfriend/scholarship without a thorough and complete understanding that suicide is forever.
Thomas, let’s cut the caca: do you consider yourself (technically) competent to kill yourself? If you wanted to hang yourself, do you think that, for example, an adequate technical mastery of noose-tying would be beyond your learning capacity??
Another simple question: do you consider yourself competent to judge the legitimacy of another person’s decision to end her own life?
What are you getting at with this?
I will find it. May take awhile as it was quite awhile ago. I believe I read it in OSV.
I’m very glad to hear that! Sometimes I think people(not speaking of you) base their belief on emotions. Like the people who supported starving Terri S to death because “they would not want to live like that”. They could not see past their feelings to the reality of who would you want to make that decision for you? Your Catholic parents who shared your faith or your estranged husband who had a new family? To me it was a no brainer but my friend could not see it.
Possibly but not necessarily. To be frank, in my moments of suicidal ideation I’m dubious of my ability to complete a suicide attempt.
No, but I’m also not a clinically certified psychologist or psychiatrist. In fact, I have no advanced training in psychology or medicine. In the more general sense, however, I would say insofar as we can set up situations that most of us have had suicidal ideation which are not full and thoroughly thought out desires to die and we can generalize from there.
I haven’t drafted right to die legislation or read through the full laws in Washington or Oregon so I wouldn’t feel comfortable trying to answer this question off the cuff. In think the very rough answer would be that a person’s suicidal ideation is not the result of depression or anxiety and is not a momentary flight of fancy (similar to the waiting period for purchasing a handgun). I think certified clinical psychologists have the training to assess the answers to these questions while neither of us, to my knowledge, are.
Do they still want to die?
Okay, me too maybe; but my point here is that you are not, in such a case, the kind of subject to which the kind of law you are proposing is applicable. Correct? When not (merely) engaged in suicidal ideation, are you still not confident of your ability? (I certainly am, and though I don’t engage in a lot of suicidal ideation, I think that even in that case I would only doubt my will/resolve, not my ability - do you suppose I’m naive?)
But you must have the idea that something particular to the training of a certified psychologist or psychiatrist fits/qualifies/certifies them to answer the existential question of suicide - what is that something??
So now you add ‘certified legislators’ to help give us an answer we can be confident about on the existential question of suicide? How does this help your case? The real question here (let’s focus on that) is if you have the training to assess the answers to the questions that you have answered here. Can you see that?
If they do not and we know this, then it’s not an interesting question. Suppose conditions are such that it is an interesting question: do you suppose we should finish the job?
Well it wasn’t my argument. However, to answer your questions, yes and yes. What do you think?
I do not suppose you are naive at all. Frankly when I’m not having periods of suicidal ideation I don’t think about it much but honestly I don’t know that I could come up with a good way to properly kill myself. I am hesitant to give the full list for fear of giving people ideas but yes, I am by no means confident in my ability to complete a suicide.
Please see below.
I’m sorry for the confusion, I was not trying to say there legislators have an a priori claim to have a better claim on this issue. I was just saying that I do not know ‘what… are the criteria that one must fulfill’ to make a claim for physician assisted suicide and I think the laws that exist now would be a good jumping off point to answer your question. I think my very rough answer would be that an individuals desire to end his or her life should not be the result of a diagnosable psychological disorder (especially depressive and anxiety disorders) and that the individual ought to be able to understand the impact of his or her decision. To be frank, I do have the training to answer the questions I’ve emphatically answered regarding the right to die but am less qualified to answer the psychological and legal ones–and hence less confident in doing so.
What makes the situation interesting? If we can’t know what they’re thinking because they’ve been brain damaged into severe retardation by the attempt then we probably oughtn’t to–at least barring an advanced directive; I for one know I would never want to live like that (via suicide attempt or accident). If we know and they’re not saying they don’t want to die then we oughtn’t to for the obvious reason that they’re saying they don’t want to die. Frankly, I’m not sure what conditions would make this an interesting question. Can you? (Not asked sarcastically or argumentatively; sometimes I hate that tone doesn’t carry via text).
I thought you were saying that part of the reason one shouldn’t have a right to die is because it damages other peoples’ lives. I don’t at all; it’s probably not the best action morally speaking but divorce exists for a reason. People can have good reasons for not wanting other people to know they are alive (e.g. abusive and stalking exes) but these cases are rather rare but frankly assuming one is not violating any other laws I don’t see a reason for walking out of one’s life to be illegal. Then again I also think personal use of drugs and prostitution should also be legal. The list is longer but I think those two illustrate a libertarian philosophy regarding social issues.