Can someone give me evidence that the bible has not been changed or edited?

[GodSavesAll]

I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

 

[Terry_McCann]

The Bible WAS changed by Luther (founder of the protestant movement) in that he removed several books.

The catholics to my knowledge have not changed the NT. Not all Jewish holy books are in the Catholic OT.

 

[Hisalone]

I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

Ask where, who and how the bible was changed. Muslims use the word corrupted.
There are a very few passages that are in question. Muslims will extrapolate this to mean the whole bible is corrupted. Challange them to use the same analysis on the quaran. The DSS dead sea schrols colaberate the OT. The amount of NT manuscripts which come from numerous geographical regions all virtually the same bears witness that they havent been changed. If you want to remember something you write it down. Why was not the quaran written down until after Mohammed died? Why would they believe an account that was not written down and 600years after the fact versus eyewitnesses who lived with Christ?

 

[JonNC]

I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

While I’m not sure why you would debate the issue of scripture with Muslims, I would encourage them to go read the Greek and Latin and Hebrew, if they are so worried about it. Or, they can continue to read the Quran, and be further led away from the true faith.

Originally posted by Terry McCann
The Bible WAS changed by Luther (founder of the protestant movement) in that he removed several books.

Luther’s translation of the Bible, finished in 1534, not only included all the books of the typical western Bible of his time, it also included the Prayer of Manasses. In other words, he translated and included 74 books in his translation into German.

Jon

 

[Dpoc41]

I wouldnt bother talking to them,Why? They are probably lying Because Islam permits lying! It is called “Al-taqiyya.” They can lie without any guilt or fear of accountability or retribution. A lie in the defense of Islam is approved even applauded in their “holy” books. Muslims are permitted to lie: (1) to save their lives, ( 2) to reconcile a husband and wife, (3) to persuade a woman into a bedroom and (4) to facilitate one on his journey.* Muslims are even permitted to disavow Islam and Mohammed if it is not a genuine heart-felt rejection. Muslims will tell you that concealment of a truth is not an abandonment of that truth if it benefits Islam. Mohammed gave permission for a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet who had offended Mohammed.

 

[Terry_McCann]

That is very interesting. Can you forward me to any specific texts verifying it?

I wouldnt bother talking to them,Why? They are probably lying Because Islam permits lying! It is called “Al-taqiyya.” They can lie without any guilt or fear of accountability or retribution. A lie in the defense of Islam is approved even applauded in their “holy” books. Muslims are permitted to lie: (1) to save their lives, ( 2) to reconcile a husband and wife, (3) to persuade a woman into a bedroom and (4) to facilitate one on his journey. Muslims are even permitted to disavow Islam and Mohammed if it is not a genuine heart-felt rejection. Muslims will tell you that concealment of a truth is not an abandonment of that truth if it benefits Islam.* Mohammed gave permission for a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet who had offended Mohammed.

 

[Elizium23]

The Bible has changed very naturally. The books of the Old Testament were handed down by oral tradition for hundreds of years before anyone wrote them down. Pages were recopied by hand painstakingly. Look at any English translation and you will see that it is drawn from several ancient sources. If the footnotes are thorough, they will tell you where the sources differ, or a reading is unclear. But this is beside the point.

Your talking point should be the Holy Spirit, who has inspired the authors of the Bible and kept it free from errors in faith and morals. The canon was determined by ecumenical councils, also guided by the Holy Spirit, which rejected many apocryphal sources that were determined to be in error or not worthy of inclusion. This is how God cared for His Church from before its inception to the present day.

 

[Terry_McCann]

Luther’s translation of the Bible, finished in 1534, not only included all the books of the typical western Bible of his time, it also included the Prayer of Manasses. In other words, he translated and included 74 books in his translation into German.

Jon

Apologies, perhaps I got my facts wrong. But weren’t some books removed at a later date?

 

[Dpoc41]

That is very interesting. Can you forward me to any specific texts verifying it?

try googling it or try here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

 

[Terry_McCann]

try googling it or try here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Thanks.

 

[JonNC]

Apologies, perhaps I got my facts wrong. But weren’t some books removed at a later date?

Yes, much later than Luther, and well after the 1611 KJV. Luther did question the canonicity of the duetero-canonical books, but then, so did others.

Jon

 

[GodSavesAll]

So the Muslims are actually right? It’s been changed?

 

[kimmielittle]

So the Muslims are actually right? It’s been changed?

Yes, and no.

They try to use this argument as if to prove something.favorable to Islam…it does not.

The Quran has been changed so many times…you can’t even keep track of them as you can the changes to the Bible.

The Word of God has not changed
The Laws / Words of Islam seem to be ever changing.

 

[PJM]

=GodSavesAll;6690220]I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

Be sure that you are speaking ONLY of the Catholic Bible. Then use the DR with can be downloaded free, and ask for specifics. Words may change; the message cannot.

There not likely going to accept it, BUT:

2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

**John 14: 16-17 ** And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 17:14-19 I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I [Jesus /God] consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth".

Theres alot more but if they don’t acept thse; just wish them well.

 

[BryanM27]

I agree mostly with what has been said so far. Yes, the Bible has been changed.

It started, as has been mentioned, with oral tradition (especially Gen 1-11) and was originally copied by hand even in the original languages.

There are several “books” that are not even included in the Catholic bible that the ecumenical councils chose to reject. You can search for them on Google, but they do exist. They are mostly other gospel accounts that the councils did not believe had merit given the ultimate message of our Savior, and when you read them you’ll see why.

Add to this the many translations. The bible was not written in English (sorry Americans, we have to swallow our oversized pride on this one). It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin, then translated into Latin and ultimately into the vernacular. Multiple sources, often translated THROUGH other sources or languages because nobody understood the original languages anymore, and ultimately from that language into the languages of the people. Things get lost in translation, and they will use that to point out why we are wrong as Christians.

Muslims believe that their text is directly from God, and that it is no longer the Qur’an if it is translated from the original Arabic.

 

[soren1]

I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

The difficulty - and opportunity - in defending the Biblical text against Muslims is that they are heavily influenced by skeptical scholarship that uses the textual variants in different Bible manuscripts as evidence against the Bible’s authenticity. They tend to be very ignorant of the science of text-criticism that enables scholars to deal with with variant readings and determine which is the original. Indeed, they rarely ever meet someone who is familiar enough with the subject to answer their arguments. If you need held, write down some of their arguments and do some research, post them here even, and then get back to them.

One important point to be mindful of is that the Qur’an also contains textual variants, and did with a generation of Muhammed. The third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, who was Mohammed’s son-in-law, assembled a committee to determine the texts of the Qur’an and to suppress and destroy variant texts that already existed in Uthman’s time. The Qur’an as we have it today descend from Uthman’s text, and we have no certainty of what the variants were that he destroyed, precisely because he successfully destroyed them. No such suppression has occurred in the Bible’s transmission history. Moreover, there are as many differences in post-Uthmanic manuscripts of the Qur’an as you would expect from any other transcribed text. This is generally unknown to Muslims.

 

[schaick]

I’m having a debate with some Muslims. They always saying the OT and the NT have been changed repeatedly. I need some ammunition to argue with them back.

Very commendable. This is what more of us need to be doing. Andrew Bieszad has some great videos about Islam.

These are bits of info from my notes:

Tertullian stated that by 150 A.D., the Church in Rome had compiled a list of the New Testament books matching our list of today.

We have 32,000 quotes from before 325 AD, from Irenaeus (182-188 AD), Justin Martyr (before 150 AD), Polycarp (107 AD), Ignatius (100), Clement (96 AD) and many other second and third century fathers. All but eleven verses of the New Testament could be reconstructed through their writings alone.

biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html

allabouttruth.org/Origin-Of-The-Bible.htm

arabicbible.com/islam/hit.htm

isaalmasih.net/bible-isa/history.html

The Dead Sea Scrolls has shown that the Isaiah we have today is the Isaiah from the time of the Dead Seas Scrolls.

Paul referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

See also:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”**

Footnotes:
1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7

Remind the Muslim where the Christian GOD inspired writers had multiple eyewitnesses and secondary witnesses to the events of Jesus’ life, Mohammad had no witnesses of any kind. It was simply Mohammad’s word that an “angel” came to him.**

 

[larkin31]

Admittedly, I am an agnostic, but even while a believer I was fully aware that both the cannon and aspects of the actual Gospels had clearly undergone a process of writing that likely included change and the (name removed by moderator)ut from more than one writer. And this made no difference to my faith. I say, what of it? So, it changed. This does not mean that it does not carry truth and inspiration for any believer (and even for non-believers).