Can someone help me understand the Original Sin doctrine?

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Hi! Can someone help me understand something? I accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, but I have a hard time accepting the doctrine of Original Sin. Every bible-believing, Christ following church teaches that we are all sinners because of Adam and Eve, but how can this be true? Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” It seems to me that God is saying that we are not sinners because of Adam and Eve, but because of our own choosing. It also seems to me that God is saying that we are not guilty of the sin that was committed by Adam and Eve. Also Jesus said we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the bible says elsewhere that no sin can enter into Heaven. I guess it could be argued that once we accept God’s salvation, our sins are acquitted, but then what about those babies who die before they grow up? Do they go to hell because they were “born sinners” and couldn’t accept God’s salvation (as a result of being babies and not knowing or understanding God’s salvation at the time)? Also, at what age does a child become accountable for his or her sins? As far as I know the bible doesn’t say at what age a person becomes accountable for their sins. Finally, how can people say that we are born sinners when the bible clearly says otherwise?
 
Please try to digest this from the catechism first and then see what follow up questions you have,
III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man’s first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain’s murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ’s atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man’s history:

What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303
 
Hi! Can someone help me understand something? I accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, but I have a hard time accepting the doctrine of Original Sin. Every bible-believing, Christ following church teaches that we are all sinners because of Adam and Eve, but how can this be true? Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” It seems to me that God is saying that we are not sinners because of Adam and Eve, but because of our own choosing. It also seems to me that God is saying that we are not guilty of the sin that was committed by Adam and Eve. Also Jesus said we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the bible says elsewhere that no sin can enter into Heaven. I guess it could be argued that once we accept God’s salvation, our sins are acquitted, but then what about those babies who die before they grow up? Do they go to hell because they were “born sinners” and couldn’t accept God’s salvation (as a result of being babies and not knowing or understanding God’s salvation at the time)? Also, at what age does a child become accountable for his or her sins? As far as I know the bible doesn’t say at what age a person becomes accountable for their sins. Finally, how can people say that we are born sinners when the bible clearly says otherwise?
 
Not Church teaching but I think Adam and Eve’s sin damaged their genetic code and this was handed on making their decendents weeker in intellect and will and making them subject to physical weekness and gradual corruption. And due to a weekend intellect and will they found it easier to do evil than to do good and certainly made them weeker vis a vis the evil one. We do know that many of if not all the dead from Adam to Christ probably went to a holding place to await the coming of Christ. Christ visited them after his death before he rose from the dead. At that time Christ applied the grace of Salvation earned by his death to those who were worthy. I believe that unborn babies and infants and children ( who were given mature intellects and wills at their deaths) were either given some kind of test whereby they might merit salvation or that they recieved the grace of salvation without a test. Either way we can be sure Christ treated with mercy and justice. The Church has no teaching on these matters so don’t spread it about as Church teaching. It is just the way I like to look at it. Comment # 2 below is very good, it is Church teaching.

:tiphat:
 
Wow. That was a very thorough analysis. My question is about those that do not accept Adam and Eve as historical figures. What then? It is not too un-catholic to see the first 11 chapters of Genesis as more or less allegorical, but also like a painting that has much to teach and show us.
 
Wow. That was a very thorough analysis. My question is about those that do not accept Adam and Eve as historical figures. What then? It is not too un-catholic to see the first 11 chapters of Genesis as more or less allegorical, but also like a painting that has much to teach and show us.
Well, if allegorical, then the figures of Adam and Eve point to our first parents, who were themselves real, historical figures. If we accept the ‘allegory’ interpretation of the creation story, then what we’re saying is that there really were two first humans, but since records of them do not exist, then the Bible is telling us that they were ‘Adam’ (literally, ‘from the earth’) and ‘Eve’ (literally, mother 'of all the living).

So, unless you’re saying that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are just “a nice story” – which isn’t at all what the Church teaches – then you’re still on solid ground with the creation account and the notion of original sin. Our first parents – whatever their names were – sinned, and by virtue of this action, their human nature was changed; this changed nature has propagated down to us. In other words, whereas the people are allegorical, and - perhaps - the notion of eating an apple from a tree is, too; nevertheless, the notion of a first sin which has enduring effects on us all is not an allegory – it’s the meaning behind the allegory!
 
Adam was vested with divine power and authority to act as steward of life on Earth before the Woman was created from his tissue and that unique grant of power to Adam was betrayed by Adam’s decision to disobey God. This is the same “corporate sin” of King David when he ordered a census against God’s command and the entire nation was punished. Again, when the Woman ate the forbidden fruit, sin and death did not come into the world.

Adam ate, sin and death came into the world. Original Sin is called the “Sin of Adam.” Woman, and through her, her Seed, were granted a separate mandate of power and authority from Adam’s: to prosecute the eternal enmity of Woman & Seed versus Lucifer and his minions. God cursed Satan and his seed with the Woman & Seed. And that’s why women are not priests but do act as a bane of the devil.

I do find it easier to accept that something broke, as the suggested genetic flaw. That’s all I know. Arthur Custances takes this (non-Catholic Christian) position in his “Seed of the Woman.” Great stuff. And the guy’s Canadian so there’s an “Alcohol as a Paradigm” chapter. Is this where I apologize; or reveal plans to invade Canada? OK. The plan to invade Canada is simply this: everybody take two steps northwards. We’re in and can then poach all the moose we can eat.

custance.org/old/seed/
 
“And that’s why women are not priests but do act as a bane of the devil.” ~ Nordskoven
I think this is going a bit overboard, but then again, that’s just me, IMHO. It is highly unfair to women to paint them in this light and the reasons why they can’t be priests lie elsewhere. Oh, and I am aware that you were quoting someone else.
 
Wow. That was a very thorough analysis. My question is about those that do not accept Adam and Eve as historical figures. What then? It is not too un-catholic to see the first 11 chapters of Genesis as more or less allegorical, but also like a painting that has much to teach and show us.
To be a bit more precise. It is the first three Chapters of Genesis which point to the basic Catholic doctrines.
 
My knowledge of the real existence of Adam is based on Divine Revelation as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. From my study of the truths of Catholicism, there is no doubt that an actual first human committed an actual Original Sin.

Scripture affirms Adam’s reality in Genesis 1: 26-28, Genesis 2: 7-18, and Romans 5:12-21. Explanatory Catholic doctrines have been duly defined under the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit. (Source: Chapter 14, the Gospel of John)

In addition, eternal life for each person is found in the spiritual domain of God and not in the material domain of natural science. In that sense, Catholicism has the definitive word regarding human origin.

In real life, there will always be people who disagree with the spiritual domain. Nonetheless, one needs to keep in mind the difference between the Creator and His created material/physical universe. Non-theists eliminate the Creator/creature difference by eliminating God.

Knowing the reality of Adam depends on accepting the existence of God.

Knowing about Original Sin depends on knowing Adam’s human nature in addition to understanding the relationship between the Creator God and the creature Adam.
 
Not Church teaching but I think Adam and Eve’s sin damaged their genetic code and this was handed on making their decendents weeker in intellect and will and making them subject to physical weekness and gradual corruption. And due to a weekend intellect and will they found it easier to do evil than to do good and certainly made them weeker vis a vis the evil one. We do know that many of if not all the dead from Adam to Christ probably went to a holding place to await the coming of Christ. Christ visited them after his death before he rose from the dead. At that time Christ applied the grace of Salvation earned by his death to those who were worthy. I believe that unborn babies and infants and children ( who were given mature intellects and wills at their deaths) were either given some kind of test whereby they might merit salvation or that they recieved the grace of salvation without a test. Either way we can be sure Christ treated with mercy and justice. The Church has no teaching on these matters so don’t spread it about as Church teaching. It is just the way I like to look at it. Comment # 2 below is very good, it is Church teaching.

:tiphat:
Human’s intellect and will are faculties of the spiritual soul which is directly created by God. While the soul’s intellect and will operate through bodily means, it is not part of the DNA of the material/physical, decomposing human anatomy.

When Adam shattered his relationship with God, his human nature was weakened in the sense that he was easily tempted to sin and like you said “people found it easier to do evil than to do good.” However, the spiritual soul with its intellect and will, cannot be connected directly with the genetic code.
 
Hi! Can someone help me understand something? I accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, but I have a hard time accepting the doctrine of Original Sin. Every bible-believing, Christ following church teaches that we are all sinners because of Adam and Eve, but how can this be true? Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” It seems to me that God is saying that we are not sinners because of Adam and Eve, but because of our own choosing. It also seems to me that God is saying that we are not guilty of the sin that was committed by Adam and Eve. Also Jesus said we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the bible says elsewhere that no sin can enter into Heaven. I guess it could be argued that once we accept God’s salvation, our sins are acquitted, but then what about those babies who die before they grow up? Do they go to hell because they were “born sinners” and couldn’t accept God’s salvation (as a result of being babies and not knowing or understanding God’s salvation at the time)? Also, at what age does a child become accountable for his or her sins? As far as I know the bible doesn’t say at what age a person becomes accountable for their sins. Finally, how can people say that we are born sinners when the bible clearly says otherwise?
your religion is “none” but you’re just “trying to follow Jesus”?

Well, Jesus established a Church, the Catholic Church, and you’d be a lot better informed by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], which was written for evangelization purposes. The word ‘catechism’ doesn’t align with “evangelical” used by Protestants, but that is its purpose.

The CCC is a lot to digest. I haven’t read it, in its entirety, even though it was published about 20 years ago.

It is attractive and tempting to want to just read the Bible, but the Bible doesn’t interpret itself, in all respects (although Evangelicals want you to believe that it does). So, do yourself a favor, and spend some time with it. It is very technical in parts, which slows me down quite a bit. And, the CCC doesn’t explain everything, either. Like around paragraph 108 it says something like Catholics are not “people of the book.”

Well, what does that mean? Well, Jews, Protestants, and Muslims say they they ARE people of the book. So, in the first place, Catholics are NOT Jews, are NOT Protestants, and are not Muslims. But, you knew that. See? if they had put in a couple more words, that statement would have been much clearer. I don’t know why they made that point so obscure.

But, what it DOES mean is that the teaching of the Catholic Church is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium – its teaching authority conferred by Christ. But, then, too, every other Christian church is based on scripture, ITS own tradition, and some degree of assumed teaching authority. Protestants generally SAY that their only authority is the Bible, but that is simply not the case. There are so many “denominations” or variations of Protestants because they follow their own home-brewed interpretations of scripture.

Catholics stand out from the crowd because we believe that there is only one tradition of the faith, which is embodied in the Church.

The real problem you will encounter with the Catholc Church is that its writings are so extensive, you may spend a lifetime trying to catch up with all the interpretations that have been given in the Church. Nevertheless, you are well-advised to join-up with the Church and bask in the assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Those interpretations are not just legalisms, they are meant to give you the guidance and assurance of the path of salvation – right faith and moral practice.
 
your religion is “none” but you’re just “trying to follow Jesus”?

Well, Jesus established a Church, the Catholic Church, and you’d be a lot better informed by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], which was written for evangelization purposes. The word ‘catechism’ doesn’t align with “evangelical” used by Protestants, but that is its purpose.

The CCC is a lot to digest. I haven’t read it, in its entirety, even though it was published about 20 years ago.

It is attractive and tempting to want to just read the Bible, but the Bible doesn’t interpret itself, in all respects (although Evangelicals want you to believe that it does). So, do yourself a favor, and spend some time with it. It is very technical in parts, which slows me down quite a bit. And, the CCC doesn’t explain everything, either. Like around paragraph 108 it says something like Catholics are not “people of the book.”

Well, what does that mean? Well, Jews, Protestants, and Muslims say they they ARE people of the book. So, in the first place, Catholics are NOT Jews, are NOT Protestants, and are not Muslims. But, you knew that. See? if they had put in a couple more words, that statement would have been much clearer. I don’t know why they made that point so obscure.

But, what it DOES mean is that the teaching of the Catholic Church is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium – its teaching authority conferred by Christ. But, then, too, every other Christian church is based on scripture, ITS own tradition, and some degree of assumed teaching authority. Protestants generally SAY that their only authority is the Bible, but that is simply not the case. There are so many “denominations” or variations of Protestants because they follow their own home-brewed interpretations of scripture.

Catholics stand out from the crowd because we believe that there is only one tradition of the faith, which is embodied in the Church.

The real problem you will encounter with the Catholc Church is that its writings are so extensive, you may spend a lifetime trying to catch up with all the interpretations that have been given in the Church. Nevertheless, you are well-advised to join-up with the Church and bask in the assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Those interpretations are not just legalisms, they are meant to give you the guidance and assurance of the path of salvation – right faith and moral practice.
Yes, the Catechism can be difficult and frustrating at times. But the wisdom in it is worth the extra effort. Thank you for presenting the basic idea of what CCC 108 is about.

May I add some more comments about CCC 108. This paragraph directly follows CCC 107 which addresses written Scripture. Paragraph 108 then introduces the contrast between a religion of the written book and Christianity, the religion of the living “Word” of God which is Jesus Christ Himself. Both Scripture and Jesus Christ are necessary. Luke 24: 13-35 is a great illustration of Jesus and Scripture.

You can look up “Word of God” in the Catechism’s Glossary. Following the definition, there is a list of relevant paragraphs. Going to the Catechism’s Index, there is a more detailed list of topics. Another hint is to first read paragraphs 20-21. You will also find a lot of Scripture references in the footnotes.

I have not read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition in its entirety. However, there are certain sections which I read over and over again and each time I learn something new or study something old which is a gem. This section, CCC 355-421 is about human nature.
 
Hi! Can someone help me understand something? I accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, but I have a hard time accepting the doctrine of Original Sin. Every bible-believing, Christ following church teaches that we are all sinners because of Adam and Eve, but how can this be true? Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” It seems to me that God is saying that we are not sinners because of Adam and Eve, but because of our own choosing. It also seems to me that God is saying that we are not guilty of the sin that was committed by Adam and Eve. Also Jesus said we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the bible says elsewhere that no sin can enter into Heaven. I guess it could be argued that once we accept God’s salvation, our sins are acquitted, but then what about those babies who die before they grow up? Do they go to hell because they were “born sinners” and couldn’t accept God’s salvation (as a result of being babies and not knowing or understanding God’s salvation at the time)? Also, at what age does a child become accountable for his or her sins? As far as I know the bible doesn’t say at what age a person becomes accountable for their sins. Finally, how can people say that we are born sinners when the bible clearly says otherwise?
Briefly, the words sin and sinners in Scripture often need to be read in their context. Generally they refer to personal sins committed by the descendants of Adam. To understand the difference between our personal sins and Adam’s Original Sin, one has to recognize the special status of Adam.

The whole of humanity from Adam to us was in Adam “as one body of one man”. (CCC 404) Catholicism teaches that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. The condition was that Adam had to live in free submission to his Creator. Adam freely chose otherwise. Thus, human nature was wounded in that human nature in the future was deprived of original holiness and justice. This state of deprivation has been transmitted to us through centuries of propagation. We are not personally responsible for the contracted state of deprivation. Furthermore, our human nature was not totally corrupted.

In spite of what Adam did, God did not abandon humanity. He promised a Redeemer, Jesus Christ. Baptism imparts the life of Christ’s grace which turns a person back to God. The contracted state of Original Sin is gone. (CCC 405)

The key Scripture passage which explains the connection between Adam and Jesus Christ is Romans 5: 12-21
 
Like around paragraph 108 it says something like Catholics are not “people of the book.”
Something like, becomes exactly 🙂 “religion of the book”

Muslims label Catholics “people of the Book” – which is why they are, in Muslim estimation, worthy to be slaves; as opposed to executed as infidels.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” It seems to me that God is saying that we are not sinners because of Adam and Eve, but because of our own choosing.
Many times in scripture it is said that the child will bear the curse of the Father down to the third and fourth generation. But the saying of Ezekiel is a little different: “18:1 strange that a proverb should be current in Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are being set of edge.!”

The passage in Ezekiel is speaking to “sons” of Israel; It is speaking to a people who believed they were “Sons” of Abraham, and deserved God’s protection because of that alone; BUT: As John the Baptist observed “Do not say you are Sons of Abraham, God can raise sons of Abraham from these rocks.”
Or again St. Paul said: not everyone who is circumcised is a son of Abraham (Romans).

Historically, the people spoken to by Ezekiel had been exiled into Babylon for a false oath (chapter 17:11-16). This is the context of chapter 18.

So, think about it: Many people, indeed, had died because of their fathers; many were born in Babylon because of their fathers – suffering exile on account of their fathers.

But, additionally – many of the children (grown and ungrown) were in despair believing that they deserved death on account of what their fathers did. It is to these children, that God speaks a message of Hope. Their father’s damnation (die the death 2nd v:18:13) was to be a sign to them – (18:14-15) – a sign of what causes death and must not be done. But such a sign is useless to an infant.

The book also is speaking primarily of transgressions of the law of Moses; for the law of Moses prescribes a physical death penalty – but does not guarantee an eternal one. Notice vv: 18:18 – “His father, a man of wrong and violence, that deserved ill of his countrymen, has paid for his guilt by death;”

Since the father has paid, the law no longer has a claim of debt.

What the prophet is talking about, then, is not the normal Jewish saying, nor is the passage entirely clear which penalty is for what – and in what way a child pays and does not pay for the father’s sin.

Even after the time of Ezekiel, even in the time of Christ, we receive word that the parents can affect the children ill by their disbelief – or conversely, at least one parent needs to be holy to prevent the child being damaged.

1Cori 7:14 Because the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, or else your children were unclean; but now are they holy.

Ans also…
Psalm 51 speaks also of the child in this way: “In transgression my mother conceived me.”
This psalm is the classic Catholic apologetic line when speaking of Original sin; cf: Augustine & St. Jerome.

Ezekiel is a message of hope saying the child is not to be punished fully for the father’s sin; but it’s context makes it clear that the children are punished partially for the father’s sins.

Ezekiel says, in the sense of human laws and punishment – that the children ought not be put to death for the false oath of their king; but it says nothing of other costs that the children must bear.
It also seems to me that God is saying that we are not guilty of the sin that was committed by Adam and Eve. Also Jesus said we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven and the bible says elsewhere that no sin can enter into Heaven. I guess it could be argued that once we accept God’s salvation, our sins are acquitted, but then what about those babies who die before they grow up?
We do not know for certain; based on Ezekiel – we can hope. But, even the Catholic Church points out that hell is not uniformly punishing. There are lesser and greater torments. It’s not solid logic to prematurely jump to the conclusion that all children would be totally spared.

The children spoken of by Jesus – were children already toddling along. Children who would have been circumcised (if boys); and already sacrificed on behalf of in the Temple – placed under the law – and protected by God’s promise.

The bosom of Abraham, was not heaven at the time of Jesus – but the Parable of Lazarus makes it clear that those with Abraham found comfort; those without him – found torture for their sins. In one sense, namely that Jesus was not with them yet, they were both in hell – in another, some received mercy and not the punishment given to others for their immediate sins.
Do they go to hell because they were “born sinners” and couldn’t accept God’s salvation (as a result of being babies and not knowing or understanding God’s salvation at the time)? Also, at what age does a child become accountable for his or her sins? As far as I know the bible doesn’t say at what age a person becomes accountable for their sins. Finally, how can people say that we are born sinners when the bible clearly says otherwise?
The bible says that the wicked “Go astray from the womb speaking lies.”

Ishmael was excused from the penalty of his sin until some time after age 13. Up and until that time, Abraham bore responsibility for him. It is immediately upon his mocking Sarah and Isaac AFTER this time (eg: during a weaning party, for likely Hagar was the wet nurse – Sarah being too old.) that Ishmael is kicked out – receiving his punishment immediately.

God did, before this time, refuse to allow Ishmael to be punished – even though his mother publicly despised Sarah and suffered reprisal. God said to Hagar to go back and take her punishment from her master.
 
Wow. That was a very thorough analysis. My question is about those that do not accept Adam and Eve as historical figures. What then? It is not too un-catholic to see the first 11 chapters of Genesis as more or less allegorical, but also like a painting that has much to teach and show us.
I don’t think it is if that is how YOU view it. However, it’s my personal belief that the first 11 chapters of Genesis are literal and not allegorical at all. Question: was the “Wow. That was a very thorough analysis” directed at me or another poster? Follow up question: If it was directed at me, then were you being serious or sarcastic?
 
“And that’s why women are not priests but do act as a bane of the devil.” ~ Nordskoven
I think this is going a bit overboard, but then again, that’s just me, IMHO. It is highly unfair to women to paint them in this light and the reasons why they can’t be priests lie elsewhere. Oh, and I am aware that you were quoting someone else.
Oh and in what scripture does it specifically say that women can’t be preists?
 
your religion is “none” but you’re just “trying to follow Jesus”?

Well, Jesus established a Church, the Catholic Church, and you’d be a lot better informed by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], which was written for evangelization purposes. The word ‘catechism’ doesn’t align with “evangelical” used by Protestants, but that is its purpose.

The CCC is a lot to digest. I haven’t read it, in its entirety, even though it was published about 20 years ago.

It is attractive and tempting to want to just read the Bible, but the Bible doesn’t interpret itself, in all respects (although Evangelicals want you to believe that it does). So, do yourself a favor, and spend some time with it. It is very technical in parts, which slows me down quite a bit. And, the CCC doesn’t explain everything, either. Like around paragraph 108 it says something like Catholics are not “people of the book.”

Well, what does that mean? Well, Jews, Protestants, and Muslims say they they ARE people of the book. So, in the first place, Catholics are NOT Jews, are NOT Protestants, and are not Muslims. But, you knew that. See? if they had put in a couple more words, that statement would have been much clearer. I don’t know why they made that point so obscure.

But, what it DOES mean is that the teaching of the Catholic Church is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium – its teaching authority conferred by Christ. But, then, too, every other Christian church is based on scripture, ITS own tradition, and some degree of assumed teaching authority. Protestants generally SAY that their only authority is the Bible, but that is simply not the case. There are so many “denominations” or variations of Protestants because they follow their own home-brewed interpretations of scripture.

Catholics stand out from the crowd because we believe that there is only one tradition of the faith, which is embodied in the Church.

The real problem you will encounter with the Catholc Church is that its writings are so extensive, you may spend a lifetime trying to catch up with all the interpretations that have been given in the Church. Nevertheless, you are well-advised to join-up with the Church and bask in the assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Those interpretations are not just legalisms, they are meant to give you the guidance and assurance of the path of salvation – right faith and moral practice.
In regard to your question: Yes. The words Christian, Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox doesn’t really sit well with those who don’t follow Jesus. Those words typically tend to leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who don’t follow Christ. If those words leave a bad taste in people’s mouth, then they will not be receptive to the salvation message. Also, when people hear that you’re a Christian they tend to lump you in with people like the Crusaders, Templars, Pat Robertson, Westboro Baptist Church, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, and those legalistic Christians who tell people their going to hell, force the bible down people’s throats, and who protest at Christian concerts just because the concert is not a gospel music concert. I for one decided that I wanted to separate myself from being lumped in with those people, so I decided to abandon the title of Christian and just say that I’m trying to follow Christ. Besides, isn’t that what all followers of Jesus doing, trying to follow Christ? You can’t say that you always follow Christ because you don’t. However, you do always try to follow Christ. Plus, telling people your trying to follow Jesus, in my experience, gets them curious and opens up the door for you to witness to them in ways that telling them you are a Christian, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant can’t and never will.
 
Thank you all for your replies. However, your replies have done nothing to convince me that the doctrine of Original Sin is not biblical. The biggest reason I have a problem with Original Sin is because I see it as a kin to blaming someone else when you’ve done something wrong. Now, you would all say that it’s wrong to blame others for what you did wrong, would you not? So then, why do you accept Original Sin which is basically the same thing? Adam and Eve may have brought sin to all humanity, but they are not the one’s that cause you to sin. When you lie, cheat, envy, covet, disobey, etc. Adam and Eve don’t cause you to do that, YOU cause you to do that stuff. And it isn’t because of Adam and Eve that you do that stuff, either. That is a kin to saying “the devil made me do it”. Satan doesn’t make anyone do anything. He puts thoughts and suggestions into people’s minds, but it is up to the person to decide whether or not he will act on those thoughts and suggestions. Now, just because you believe in Original Sin doesn’t make you any less of a follower of Jesus in my eyes. So please don’t think that. Again, thank you all for your replies. Have a good day (or night depending on where you’re from).
 
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