Can someone help?

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I know of no situation at all where the Church claims people have no free will. That is why it call everyone to chastity!
The Church makes the claim that a group of people has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction
toward persons of the same sex” the so called “homosexual person”.

If someone had “an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” would they have freewill to live
a Holy fulfilled life in marriage? I don’t think so.

With this issue I believe the Church is getting itself caught up in what Bishop Fulton Sheen referred to as false compassion:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7pKqfhWeo

God bless
 
The Church makes the claim that a group of people has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction
toward persons of the same sex” the so called “homosexual person”.

If someone had “an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” would they have freewill to live
? I don’t think so.

With this issue I believe the Church has got itself caught up in what Bishop Fulton Sheen referred to as false compassion:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7pKqfhWeo

God bless
I think you are confusing “free will” with “freedom”. They are not the same and cannot be used interchangeably.

You are free to chose anything (free will). You may not be able to carry out that choice (lack freedom).

A person’s attractions are not usually based on choices, so free will is not involved. Such attractions my be used to guide the choices made. However each person is free to ignore these attractions and choose what is right over what is wrong. This is an exercise of free will. So applying this to your question, there nothing innate to prevent someone with SSA to disregard that attraction and enter into “a Holy fulfilled life in marriage” with someone of the opposite sex.
 
I think you are confusing “free will” with “freedom”. They are not the same and cannot be used interchangeably.

You are free to chose anything (free will). You may not be able to carry out that choice (lack freedom).

A person’s attractions are not usually based on choices, so free will is not involved. Such attractions my be used to guide the choices made. However each person is free to ignore these attractions and choose what is right over what is wrong. This is an exercise of free will. So applying this to your question, there nothing innate to prevent someone with SSA to disregard that attraction and enter into “a Holy fulfilled life in marriage” with someone of the opposite sex.
Thank you for taking time to reply. I do not agree with your view.

I do not believe if someone has an “an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”
they would have the freewill to have a Holy fulfilled life in marriage as I believe this requires an attraction
to the spouse. I believe the Church has made an error in claiming that anyone has the capacity to
“experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”.

Do you believe anyone is incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex? I do not

God bless
 
I didn’t realize the complexity of the Church’s view of chastity the CCC says:
I am still not clear on your perspective. Do you believe that anyone is incapable of attraction to
persons of the opposite sex? I do not.

God bless
While I believe that many are capable of marriage. I do believe that some people do experience exclusive same sexual attraction. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it is permanent or not or whether or not they have the capability for marriage at a later point in life should God choose to heal them.

I don’t really see the controversy you see I guess.
A person who is impotent can’t be married (i think its in canon law section 1084). Does the impotent person have no freewill to be in a holy and fullfilling marriage… I guess not, but maybe it is because said person is not called for marriage. Could exclusive SSA represent a kind of impotency that indicates that person doesn’t have the marriage call. In a way, I guess you could say they don’t have freewill to choose marriage.

But maybe instead of focusing on the obsession of marriage for said people, focus on what they can do for God and remind them to be open to the possibiity should they feel a pull by God towards that particular vocation in the future. Does that help better explain my rather nuanced position?
 
While I believe that many are capable of marriage. I do believe that some people do experience exclusive same sexual attraction.That doesn’t necessarily mean that it is permanent or not or whether or not they have the capability for marriage at a later point in life should God choose to heal them.
You can believe anything you would like and I believe that you are sincere in what you say I do not
agree with what you believe. I believe the Church does not have freewill to believe anything some of
its members would like it to but must remain faithful to Church history tradition and Apostolic teaching.
I do not believe that the Church suggests that this “exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of
the same sex” transitory, so one must believe the Church accepts this as intrinsic and permanent.
I believe this is an error by the Church.

God bless
 
You can believe anything you would like and I believe that you are sincere in what you say I do not
agree with what you believe. I believe the Church does not have freewill to believe anything some of
its members would like it to but must remain faithful to Church history tradition and Apostolic teaching.
I do not believe that the Church suggests that this “exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of
the same sex” transitory, so one must believe the Church accepts this as intrinsic and permanent.
I believe this is an error by the Church.

God bless
I guess I’m not reaching the same conclusions that there has been a change in Church Tradition or Apostolic teaching. It is still taught that the acts (whether mental or physical is wrong). I don’t quite see the change that you disagree with. Could you explain in a little more detail your view point. Also maybe explain the exact part of my viewpoint you disagree with or where we agree. I’m trying to better understand our differences.

God bless.
 
Thank you for taking time to reply. I do not agree with your view.
Why do you think it is just my view? Is that so it can be dismissed without comment? Please address the points made.
I do not believe if someone has an “an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”
they would have the freewill to have a Holy fulfilled life in marriage as I believe this requires an attraction
to the spouse. I believe the Church has made an error in claiming that anyone has the capacity to
“experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”.

Do you believe anyone is incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex? I do not

God bless
Why is your belief in line with reality? Why should I accept your disbelief? What is your evidence? Why is my belief relevant?
 
I guess I’m not reaching the same conclusions that there has been a change in Church Tradition or Apostolic teaching.
Can you cite any Church teaching that people have the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction
toward persons of the same sex” prior to 50 years ago?
It is still taught that the acts (whether mental or physical is wrong).
I have never disputed this.
I don’t quite see the change that you disagree with. Could you explain in a little more detail your view point. Also maybe explain the exact part of my viewpoint you disagree with or where we agree. I’m trying to better understand our differences.

God bless.
This is not complicated I don’t believe anyone has the capacity “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction
toward persons of the same sex”

God bless
 
…I don’t believe anyone has the capacity “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”
It is not required that you believe it. It is not a tenet of faith, but mere scientific conclusion, that the Church accepts.
 

I do not believe that the Church suggests that this “exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” is transitory, so one must believe the Church accepts this as intrinsic and permanent.
The church has not expressed its understanding on that matter, so one need not believe any such thing. The Church focusses on the moral issues that apply regardless of an individual case. She identifies the sin, why it is sin and what behaviours are in accord with a moral life.
 
Can you cite any Church teaching that people have the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” prior to 50 years ago?
There is not now nor has there ever been a church teaching to this effect. The above is a conclusion of science, arrived at in the 20th century, and accepted by the Church.

Please note that there are other scientific findings, some related to sexuality, that the Church accepts.
 
There is not now nor has there ever been a church teaching to this effect. The above is a conclusion of science, arrived at in the 20th century, and accepted by the Church.
Please cite the source of the conclusion you reference.

God bless
 
Please cite the source of the conclusion you reference.

God bless
There is voluminous literature on the subject and I don’t care to do a literature search for you, but your public library may be happy to assist you.
 
There is voluminous literature on the subject and I don’t care to do a literature search for you, but your public library may be happy to assist you.
There is nothing conclusive on this subject. Feel free to prove me wrong.

God bless
 
There is nothing conclusive on this subject. Feel free to prove me wrong.

God bless
Lack of conclusivity doesn’t prove you point right or wrong. I guess we are at the point to agree to disagree.

God bless.
 
And the bottom line is this: Those who suffer with this disorder have testified by the hundreds, and more, that the level of SSA they experience in their lives varies.
I still don’t understand how you arrive at your view I don’t believe the secular world views
“homosexuality” as a “disorder” but rather a “normal” and healthy variation of the species.
Even the Church doesn’t view people with SSA attraction as having a “disorder” the CCC
2358 says: “This inclination, which is objectively disordered”. It is the inclination that is
disordered, I agree with this. I believe the inclination is a temptation and all temptation is
disordered. I do not agree that anyone has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual
attraction toward persons of the same sex”. I believe that this statement is an error by the Church
I personally have a male friend that I helped to come to the Catholic Church who would tell you that sexual relations with a woman is repugnant to him. His sexual attraction is purely toward men. Now, this fellow has all sorts of problems and abuse in his background that most likely contributes to his disordered state, but it is difficult not to acknowledge that this disordered state is a real possibility. I have another dear friend who has attempted to be “cured” of his SSA, even visiting our friend Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, but to no avail. As you know, John, curing this disorder is a real possibility, and there are many such documented cases, but that is not always the case. In the case of this second friend of mine, he was sexually abused by two of his older brothers, neither of whom knew the other was also abusing their little brother. It was a horrible situation that my friend knows has left what seem to be indelible scars in his psyche. My wife and I have tried to set him up with women, and he has even dated a few of them. But each time, he tells me, “there is just no attraction to women there.” His attraction as well is toward men alone. He now lives a consecrated single life and is at peace with his calling to be celibate.
I do not know your two friends and do not wish to disparage them or judge them. Since you
brought their stories up I will use them to show how I think they highlight the Church’s error.

For the first case you say: “I personally have a male friend that I helped to come to the Catholic
Church who would tell you that sexual relations with a woman is repugnant to him. His sexual
attraction is purely toward men.”. This person has clearly had a difficult life but from what you
share seems resigned to believing himself a “homosexual person” which is his privilege with
freewill the Lord gives all. I believe it wrong for the Church to encourage such a belief.

The other case you say: “It was a horrible situation that my friend knows has left what seem to
be indelible scars in his psyche. My wife and I have tried to set him up with women, and he has
even dated a few of them. But each time, he tells me, “there is just no attraction to women there”.
For this person you and he had some hope that it might be possible for him to have attraction to
persons of the opposite sex. I am sorry that you lost hope. I can understand the secular world
person giving up, I cannot understand a person of Faith giving up. Are not all things possible
with the Lord? Is not the Lord capable of supplying sufficient Grace?

Is SSA a special type of temptation?

One can accept the existence of the “homosexual person” based on emotion, or false compassion
as Bishop Fulton Sheen referred, but the Church must not.

The fact remains that the Church claims a group of people “experience an exclusive … sexual
attraction toward persons of the same sex”. I believe that this statement is an error by the Church.
I have not seen a truly right and just reason given for this claim. Do you have one?

God bless
 
I still don’t understand how you arrive at your view I don’t believe the secular world views
“homosexuality” as a “disorder” but rather a “normal” and healthy variation of the species.
Some people view it as such. I am fairly sure Tim does not. What causes some persons to experience SSA (and no attraction to the opposite sex) is unknown, but widely observed and documented in scientific research as, according to research, something beyond the choice of the individual.
For the first case you say: “I personally have a male friend that I helped to come to the Catholic Church who would tell you that sexual relations with a woman is repugnant to him. His sexual attraction is purely toward men.”. This person has clearly had a difficult life but from what you share seems resigned to believing himself a “homosexual person” which is his privilege with freewill the Lord gives all.
The person may not relish his situation, and he may indeed take the view that the “direction” of his attraction won’t change (while admitting some possibility). That is not an irrational position to take in light of the evidence. The hope in the story, which you overlook, lies in the potential for this person to accept the moral course in his life, whatever his attractions may be.
 
but widely observed and documented in scientific research as, according to research, something beyond the choice of the individual.
I do not believe said “scientific research” exists beyond “self-identification” surveys and wishful thinking.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
The person may not relish his situation, and he may indeed take the view that the “direction” of his attraction won’t change (while admitting some possibility). That is not an irrational position to take in light of the evidence.
“evidence” really.
The hope in the story, which you overlook, lies in the potential for this person to accept the moral course in his life, whatever his attractions may be.
I never discount hope but I believe it wrong for the Church to lay stumbling blocks on the path to
eternal life of confused individuals.

God bless
 
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