Can someone please explain to me why God gave us free will?

[cena]

Really?

Can you see no way that it may have been loving (which would hardly make it blasphemous)?

Can you recall no writing of one apostle, or another highly venerated saint that might (admittedly subjective) support such a possibility?

God never wanted us to sin. He tolerates sin but He would much rather us we choose not to sin than to sin.

What saint was this?

 

[cena]

Thank you for trying , but it still seems to me that all of these wonderful examples (marriage, the military, a parental relationship) are all just attempting to make sense of our situation as it currently exists. The question still remains, could it be different? Who says love requires free will? We only say that because we had no choice in the matter. Why couldn’t God have made Himself completely irresistible to us, His creatures. If you love someone, let them go. … To Hell?? I’m sorry, that does not sound like love to me. If a lover desires the happiness of the beloved, shouldn’t that lover, especially an all-powerful, all-knowing lover, ensure that the beloved would not and could not make the choice that would lead to eternal misery? Read the Gospel passage about the goats and the sheep and tell me life is not a test again.

Look, I understand that life is a gift, and believe me, I’m grateful. God has just arranged some things in a way I find somewhat baffling. I’m not even complaining so much on my own behalf, but I have people whom I love all around me who apparently reject God or some aspect of God’s many loving laws, and it pains me to see this, based on the potential consequences. I trust in God’s love and mercy, and I fully acknowledge one alternative: God could have chosen not make us at all, so I’m not complaining. But free will, I still have issues with that.

If you forced someone to love you, is that real love?

If someone doesn’t love you back, no matter how good you are for them, in a short amount of time why would they want to be face to face with you for all eternity

Hell is the state being without God. Those people don’t have God, they never will and this torments them forever.

They have to commit a mortal sin (all three conditions) and refuse to repent before dying
There are people who repent right before death. God gives a lot of chances to repent. Look at St. Augustine and St. Paul, they weren’t always on the right track but through God’s grace they came around and became saints.

 

[christofirst]

If you forced someone to love you, is that real love?

If someone doesn’t love you back, no matter how good you are for them, in a short amount of time why would they want to be face to face with you for all eternity

Hell is the state being without God. Those people don’t have God, they never will and this torments them forever.

They have to commit a mortal sin (all three conditions) and refuse to repent before dying
There are people who repent right before death. God gives a lot of chances to repent. Look at St. Augustine and St. Paul, they weren’t always on the right track but through God’s grace they came around and became saints.

Let me ask you this, which might be a little off-topic, but is still relevant (and this is not just for you, cena, but for della or clem or clare or any who care to respond):

Has your decision to love and serve God required a herculean effort on your part? Seriously, do you struggle every single moment to say yes to God? I ask because it seems like the free will deck is stacked for some of us - some of us seem to find that our free will is almost naturally inclined to accept the gift of faith. This is how it is for me. Sure, I struggle with sin, but I have no trouble accepting the tenets of our Faith. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, etc., etc. No problem, no doubt.

But clearly, this is not so for many of us. So many people cannot or will not accept faith in God, while for others it seems so easy and natural, that I have to ask myself: Why does God apparently aid some of us in inclining our free will toward the right choice, while others, it appears, are not so blessed? This is what I mean when I say the whole notion of free will leaves me somewhat baffled. Maybe God levels the playing field for all of us at some point in our lives or at the moment of death (I hope so!), but in the mean time, it almost seems like God plays favorites: like free will is a blessing for some and a curse for others.

 

[magnat]

He loves you and he wants you to love him not because you have to but because you want to. If God didn’t give us free will we would all be like robots walking around doing whatever he pleases, he gave us free will because he wants us to choose to follow him, love him, and honour him.

 

[christofirst]

He loves you and he wants you to love him not because you have to but because you want to. If God didn’t give us free will we would all be like robots walking around doing whatever he pleases, he gave us free will because he wants us to choose to follow him, love him, and honour him.

We are also told God wants the salvation of all: 1Tim 3-4:

"This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Yet, based on free will and the apparent ease with which some of us accept the faith, and the difficult impediments to faith which others encounter, it almost seems like God desires some to be saved more than others. Life would be easier and our true happiness would be ensured without free will.

 

[cena]

Let me ask you this, which might be a little off-topic, but is still relevant (and this is not just for you, cena, but for della or clem or clare or any who care to respond):

Has your decision to love and serve God required a herculean effort on your part? Seriously, do you struggle every single moment to say yes to God? I ask because it seems like the free will deck is stacked for some of us - some of us seem to find that our free will is almost naturally inclined to accept the gift of faith. This is how it is for me. Sure, I struggle with sin, but I have no trouble accepting the tenets of our Faith. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, etc., etc. No problem, no doubt.

But clearly, this is not so for many of us. So many people cannot or will not accept faith in God, while for others it seems so easy and natural, that I have to ask myself: Why does God apparently aid some of us in inclining our free will toward the right choice, while others, it appears, are not so blessed? This is what I mean when I say the whole notion of free will leaves me somewhat baffled. Maybe God levels the playing field for all of us at some point in our lives or at the moment of death (I hope so!), but in the mean time, it almost seems like God plays favorites: like free will is a blessing for some and a curse for others.

Yes, actually it can be quite a struggle. I fight temptations all the time. Temptations don’t come from God. If God was not helping me I would succumb to every single one of them. The ironic thing is they are usually against faith or the second commandment.That’s part of the reason I don’t believe that God creates bad people and makes no effort to help them.
I, a weak fragile human being, have no natural power to resist the temptations thrown at me.
God is the one helping me.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

To me, “free will” has always been sort of a theoretical concept. God gave us this thing called free will ostensibly because he wants us to chose to love Him and not be a slave or robot to His will.

But in a practical sense, free will doesn’t really exist because the consequences for not “choosing” to follow Him are so great (i.e., going to Hell) that whole point is rendered moot. You have no choice but to love and follow Him if you want to go to heaven.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “I want you to be my friend. You have free will and you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if you do not choose to be my friend, I will kill you.” Now, assuming that you do not want to die you will opt to be my friend even though you may not like me.

Some “choice”, wasn’t it?

So God is, in effect, saying “Be my friend or I will kill you. Worship me, praise me, follow me, obey my commandments or else your soul will wind up in Hell. It’s your choice.”

So much for “free” will.

 

[cena]

To me, “free will” has always been sort of a theoretical concept. God gave us this thing called free will ostensibly because he wants us to chose to love Him and not be a slave or robot to His will.

But in a practical sense, free will doesn’t really exist because the consequences for not “choosing” to follow Him are so great (i.e., going to Hell) that whole point is rendered moot. You have no choice but to love and follow Him if you want to go to heaven.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “I want you to be my friend. You have free will and you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if you do not choose to be my friend, I will kill you.” Now, assuming that you do not want to die you will opt to be my friend even though you may not like me.

Some “choice”, wasn’t it?

So God is, in effect, saying “Be my friend or I will kill you. Worship me, praise me, follow me, obey my commandments or else your soul will wind up in Hell. It’s your choice.”

So much for “free” will.

Guess what heaven is? Seeing God face to face with all the angels, Saints, Mary, etc. as far as we know that’s the main thing. So if you don’t love God, then you couldn’t stand seeing Him for all eternity. God is what will make us happy.
Hell is complete separation from God for all eternity. We need God to be happy. He is the source of love, goodness, etc. God isn’t going to force people who hate him into his presence.

Also, you need to do something really bad with full knowledge and full consent and never repent to go to hell.

 

[POJIUJH]

There’s no love that isn’t sacrificial. Nothing good that is ever easy. God has it that Heaven requires a choice, from all that He taught the world, this is probably why!

 

[Gorgias]

But in a practical sense, free will doesn’t really exist because the consequences for not “choosing” to follow Him are so great (i.e., going to Hell) that whole point is rendered moot. You have no choice but to love and follow Him if you want to go to heaven.

By choosing – on your own – to value eternal life with God over eternal life without Him, aren’t you exercising your free will?

If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “I want you to be my friend. You have free will and you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if you do not choose to be my friend, I will kill you.” Now, assuming that you do not want to die you will opt to be my friend even though you may not like me.

Poor foundation. God isn’t “holding a gun to [our] head.” In a certain sense, He is making it possible for the gun to exist, although He doesn’t will the gun or create it. Instead, He invites us to choose Him, although He allows us to construct the gun and shoot ourselves with it, if we so choose.

 

[Gorgias]

Della:

The idea that God would want us to sin is blasphemous.

Can you see no way that it may have been loving (which would hardly make it blasphemous)?

The ends do not justify the means; nor is God the author of evil. Your suggestion is mistaken.

Can you recall no writing of one apostle, or another highly venerated saint that might (admittedly subjective) support such a possibility?

I’m guessing that you’re alluding to the “oh happy fault, oh necessary sin” of the Exsultet, which is loosely based on Augustine’s “God judged it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit any evil to exist.”

However, this does not imply that God facilitated or even desired sin; rather, simply that, as Aquinas states: “God allows evils to happen”.

So, no – these statements of Augustine and Aquinas do not mean that God desires sin. Sorry.

 

[POJIUJH]

It’s a question that is easily answered by drawing attention to the fact that love by definition requires a will. Even good traits and habits remain empty traits and habits if they aren’t tested and chosen. The choice is what the will chooses to love.

1. Heaven is to be totally united to -and melded into- Love Itself, God.
2. Therefore Heaven is a choice just as loving God is a choice.
3. Free will is required to make a choice
4. Therefore free will is required for Heaven

 

[Peter_Plato]

To me, “free will” has always been sort of a theoretical concept. God gave us this thing called free will ostensibly because he wants us to chose to love Him and not be a slave or robot to His will.

But in a practical sense, free will doesn’t really exist because the consequences for not “choosing” to follow Him are so great (i.e., going to Hell) that whole point is rendered moot. You have no choice but to love and follow Him if you want to go to heaven.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “I want you to be my friend. You have free will and you can decide for yourself what you want to do. But if you do not choose to be my friend, I will kill you.” Now, assuming that you do not want to die you will opt to be my friend even though you may not like me.

Some “choice”, wasn’t it?

So God is, in effect, saying “Be my friend or I will kill you. Worship me, praise me, follow me, obey my commandments or else your soul will wind up in Hell. It’s your choice.”

So much for “free” will.

Augustine had a far more profound and interesting view of free will than the one depicted above. In his view, free will is more completely enabled the closer we come to God precisely because God is the source of true freedom. Sin is slavery because it disables free will. Grace makes us completely free to choose the good and become good in doing so.

Sin or evil is free will acting against or betraying itself by abdicating its own nature. By choosing something less than God (absolute truth and goodness) as its impetus or final end, free will moves towards a lesser good rather than being moved by the absolute good - God himself.

Therefore, Jesus said, “Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. … So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:34)

 

[Bahman]

Personally, I suspect the reason is very simple and basic. Free will is the ground for personal identity. We have “personhood” because we have the capacity to intend and to choose freely. Our autonomy is the basis for our identity – for who we are as individual human persons.

In order to have an identity it is necessary to have a uniqueness that is separate from the causal order around us. If we were merely an aspect of the causal order there would be nothing that would make us distinct from it – that would identify us to ourselves as distinct existents.

The capacity to originate novel causal sequences in reality makes us unique, distinct and “who” we are.

No, that is consciousness.

 

[Bahman]

I’m a very devout Catholic and love God with my heart but for some reason I always wonder why God allowed us to have free will. To me free will is a curse. If you love someone, why would you allow them to choose wrong?

Now I know the argument I will probably hear is that if someone is a parent, then they will have to accept that their kids will make mistakes sometimes. This might be true of a child who is a teenager or even someone over the age of about 7 or so, maybe even younger, but would you allow an infant or a toddler to simply make mistakes and do whatever they wanted? I don’t think so.

To me, God is letting us make our own choices, but compared to God we are but infants who don’t know anything. He’s basically letting us play in a crib dangling at the edge of a cliff with walls we can easily climb. Sure some of us will chose to stay on the cliff, but some will fall to the abyss because they don’t know any better, or they think that they will be safe and either God will protect them, or that God isn’t watching or worse doesn’t exist.

The main question is why we are conscious being since free will is by-product of consciousness. I am kinda wondering that your God cannot possibly create an unconscious human being with all humans capabilities because it is logically impossible.

 

[Peter_Plato]

The main question is why we are conscious being since free will is by-product of consciousness. I am kinda wondering that your God cannot possibly create an unconscious human being with all humans capabilities because it is logically impossible.

I am arguing that free will allows consciousness because free will makes possible the sense in which we become aware or conscious of our individuated existence.

You are merely claiming that free will is a by-product of consciousness but provide no real reason for thinking it is so.

 

[Bahman]

I am arguing that free will allows consciousness because free will makes possible the sense in which we become aware or conscious of our individuated existence.

You are merely claiming that free will is a by-product of consciousness but provide no real reason for thinking it is so.

Consciousness is the ability to experience. Hence free will is something which can be experienced by consciousness.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Consciousness is the ability to experience. Hence free will is something which can be experienced by consciousness.

This is begging the question.

Consciousness is the ability to experience chairs, trees and cats in the external world. Hence chairs, trees and cats are things that can be experienced by consciousness.

Does that mean chairs, trees and cats are dependent for THEIR existence on consciousness? No.

Not without some serious question begging on your part about what chairs, trees and cats ultimately are, in reality and in themselves.

My cat often acts in quite unexpected and INDEPENDENT ways – independent of what MY consciousness expects.

Yes, of course, if you assume “consciousness” is something more than the intentionality of my consciousness, then you can claim anything you want about “consciousness,” but we have no way of knowing that any of those claims are true independent of your saying they are. This makes your claim unfalsifiable.

 

[Bahman]

This is begging the question.

Consciousness is the ability to experience chairs, trees and cats in the external world. Hence chairs, trees and cats are things that can be experienced by consciousness.

By which you then experience that you have free will?

Does that mean chairs, trees and cats are dependent for THEIR existence on consciousness? No.

Not mine or yours most probably someone else.

Not without some serious question begging on your part about what chairs, trees and cats ultimately are, in reality and in themselves.

Huh? I don’t understand what objects has to do with my free will.

My cat often acts in quite unexpected and INDEPENDENT ways – independent of what MY consciousness expects.

Of course.

Yes, of course, if you assume “consciousness” is something more than the intentionality of my consciousness, then you can claim anything you want about “consciousness,” but we have no way of knowing that any of those claims are true independent of your saying they are. This makes your claim unfalsifiable.

Thank you.