Can someone suffer because of our sins?

[RCIAGraduate]

Note I am not referring to others suffering from the fallout or consequences of sin, but rather could our loved ones be in effect “cursed” or suffer due to our sins. Or is it more direct (like if someone ate a lot and lived a sedentary lifestyle, they eventually become overweight)? Just to clear things up (but rather not delve into it) I’m not an observant Catholic but I am worried about “cursing” my loved ones. I was listening to a crime documentary and the investigator was trying to get the suspect to fess up and she used religion to try to get him to confess, saying his relative would be “cursed” or suffer in order to get to confess (i.e part of me is wondering how ethical this is but they have a job to do). Thoughts?

 

[TK421]

There is such a thing as corporate sin (versus individual sin) and it effects the world in a mystical and mysterious way beyond merely cause & effect. It’s not really clearly understood, but in the same way we can bring good to the world as a mystical body through prayer and penance, we can also bring evil to the world by violating or neglecting Divine Law.
Getting too deeply into this can lead to superstitious thought. A relevant section of Scripture on this would be the books of 1st & 2nd Kings. Many of the kings of Israel & the kings of Judah followed the patterns of their fathers and did evil in the sight of God (especially in the northern kingdom of Israel, which was one bad apple on the throne after another), but there were other kings who did good and pleased God, even if their direct forefather did evil.
God’s mercy surpasses everything else about him. Even in the event that a person might be suffering for something they didn’t do, since “no servant is greater than his master”, it would be a redemptive suffering and ultimately good for the person, because God only wills what is good for us even if we can’t see the full picture.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

When you sin, you can cause direct harm to others by your sin. For example, if you cheat on your spouse, your spouse might feel hurt and angry and might be exposed to an STD, and your children might be hurt due to the whole family situation.

You can also cause general harm to others by the fact that your sins make the world a worse place for everybody to live in and provoke the wrath of God, who may bring down a punishment in a general sense on a large group of people causing the innocent to suffer with the guilty. We see this in the Old Testament and in private revelations like Fatima. War has been seen as caused by/ punishment for the sins of a whole group of people over time.

However, Catholics in general don’t believe in curses on immediate family or loved ones as a consequence for sin. In other words, if I sin, it doesn’t bring down a curse on my immediate family member who has done nothing wrong, and cause them to suffer. If my child gets cancer and dies, that isn’t viewed as being a punishment visited on my child for my personal sins. There is a tendency when a loved one dies to think “it is my fault somehow that they suffered and/ or died?” and in my experience Catholic priests will immediately steer you away from that type of thinking. There may be certain cultures in the world that believe in curses and such and I would leave it to them and their priest to deal with, but from a Catholic church standpoint we don’t believe that God punishes Person A’s loved ones because Person A sinned.

 

[Seagull]

Everyone - in your vicinity - if your a sinner - suffers.
No one wants to deal with a habitual sinner.
Now when you add - to that fact - cursing - forget it.
You become like a sorcerer , without even knowing it.
Jesus said - whoever curses at his brother - is in danger of HELL.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

You could be sinning by scandal—if they know you’re a Catholic and not living your faith, they could be led into sin (“so-and-so’s a Catholic, but they think XYZ is okay”) by your example.
And because sin has consequences, yeah—people could suffer because of your choices.

 

[Vico]

Note I am not referring to others suffering from the fallout or consequences of sin, but rather could our loved ones be in effect “cursed” or suffer due to our sins. Or is it more direct (like if someone ate a lot and lived a sedentary lifestyle, they eventually become overweight)? Just to clear things up (but rather not delve into it) I’m not an observant Catholic but I am worried about “cursing” my loved ones. I was listening to a crime documentary and the investigator was trying to get the suspect to fess up and she used religion to try to get him to confess, saying his relative would be “cursed” or suffer in order to get to confess (i.e part of me is wondering how ethical this is but they have a job to do). Thoughts?

Haydock Commentary on Exodus 20:5 “you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,”

Ver. 5. Adore. Protestants translate again, with the same view, as in the preceding verse, “thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,” in condemnation of Catholics, who kneel before the cross. But do not they kneel, when they receive their sacramental bread, or when they ask for their parents’ blessing? Did not S. John, and other saints, bow down out of respect to angels? And were these all idolaters! We are forbidden, therefore, to shew any respect to strange gods. But we must honour the true God in his saints, referring all the glory to him. H.
— Hate me. Those who do not imitate their wicked ancestors, need not fear being involved in their punishment. M. S. Aug. q. 42. S. Greg. mor. 15. 22. S. Jer. in Ezec. xviii.
— Sometimes, indeed, God takes away the lives of children and of subjects, to punish the sins of parents and of kings; but this may be no real detriment to the deceased. H.
— Grotius thinks, that this menace is directed against idolaters. Others believe, it may be placed at the conclusion of each of the commandments. C.

 

[MaryT777]

No we cannot curse others.

John 9

The Man Born Blind.
1

• As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.a
  2
• His disciples asked him,b “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
  3
  Jesus answered, “Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.c
  4
  http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/9
  United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

Be at peace.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Vico, that passage is why some people wonder if their sins caused their spouse or child to die or whatever, and while Haydock might have meant well, the Church does NOT teach today that God punishes you for your sins by killing your child or whatever. Your quoting this is an illustration of the pitfalls of people interpreting the Bible themselves.

To me this is extremely important because survivors tend to blame themselves for a loved one’s death. Sometimes there may be a consequential reason why, like if I get drunk and don’t watch my child then he could get hit by a car. But often people blame themselves for deaths when it is in no way their consequential fault. Cancer deaths, heart deaths etc.

The Old Testament is just that, an OLD covenant. Under Jesus’ new covenant, God doesn’t kill your kids to punish you for your sins. We are all sinners so technically God would have reason to kill off everyone if that is the case.

I’ve discussed this with priests in confession and they will immediately say “the death is not your fault”, so regardless of Mr. Haydock, I don’t think we should propagate this idea that God punishes the next generations for their father’s sins.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Thanks for posting that, Mary. I remembered vaguely that Jesus addressed this, because based on Old Testament thinking, that’s exactly the conclusion people would reach - that either the man sinned or his parents did.

One could argue that the whole reason why there’s any sort of sickness or pain in the world is due to original sin/ man’s sin generally, but that’s way different from saying “you sinned so your illness is punishment” or “your father sinned so your illness is a curse”.
We can’t curse people.

 

[Vico]

…

Note that the commentary states: “Those who do not imitate their wicked ancestors, need not fear being involved in their punishment. M. S. Aug. q. 42. S. Greg. mor. 15. 22. S. Jer. in Ezec. xviii.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

Note I am not referring to others suffering from the fallout or consequences of sin, but rather could our loved ones be in effect “cursed” or suffer due to our sins.

Someone asked Jesus this same question! Gospel of John, chapter 9.

**As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth. **

His disciples asked him,b “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Jesus answered, “Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.

We have free will. While our sins have “fallout” (good term, I like that you used it) such as if I do drugs when pregnant my unborn child will suffer or if I rob a bank and go to prison my family and friends will suffer, the spiritual result of my sins is on me. God does not punish one person for someone else’s sin.

 

[Vico]

Thanks for posting that, Mary. I remembered vaguely that Jesus addressed this, because based on Old Testament thinking, that’s exactly the conclusion people would reach - that either the man sinned or his parents did.

One could argue that the whole reason why there’s any sort of sickness or pain in the world is due to original sin/ man’s sin generally, but that’s way different from saying “you sinned so your illness is punishment” or “your father sinned so your illness is a curse”.
We can’t curse people.

We definitely suffer from the Fall, Catechism. Per the Council of Trent, original sin is transmitted with human nature, ‘not by imitation, but by propagation’ and that it is thus 'proper to everyone’. The “the consequences for nature” in mankind persist.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.