Can someone tell me why theocracy is bad

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I mean, I can’t think of any reason. The way I see it is like this, why shouldn’t theology dictate public policy? When I see Catholics fighting gay rights and the culture of death, we’re just begging for scraps from the table of secular democracy. Why not just start believing in theocracy again? We don’t have to burn Protestants at the stake just because Catholicism is the official guiding religion of the State. I think we can make it work. Why should’t we all?
 
I mean, I can’t think of any reason. The way I see it is like this, why shouldn’t theology dictate public policy? When I see Catholics fighting gay rights and the culture of death, we’re just begging for scraps from the table of secular democracy. Why not just start believing in theocracy again? We don’t have to burn Protestants at the stake just because Catholicism is the official guiding religion of the State. I think we can make it work. Why should’t we all?
Whose version of theocracy? What makes you think that if we have a theocracy, that it will be Christian, let alone Catholic? And by what means will you impose it, let alone enfoce it?

And what, in the Gospels, makes you think that Christ wanted to impose a theocracy?
 
A Catholic theocracy, similar to the Papal States I suppose. Let the laymen handle the economics, politics and such, but let them be devout Catholics who make and enforce law as inspired by Catholic doctrine and social teaching. Why should we leave morality in public policy up to majority vote? If wrong is wrong and right is right, why shouldn’t the Church enforce it’s laws through the State? Let the State be an instrument of the Church. Why shouldn’t it be? As long as we act out of love and orthodoxy, how could it go wrong?
 
No.
Whose version of theocracy?
Ours!
What makes you think that if we have a theocracy, that it will be Christian, let alone Catholic?
The prophecies.
And by what means will you impose it, let alone enfoce it?
The Great Monarch.
And what, in the Gospels, makes you think that Christ wanted to impose a theocracy?
“She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” (Revelation 12:5)

“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” (Revelation 6:1-2)

“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1 Peter 3:15)

😃
 
No.

Ours!

The prophecies.

The Great Monarch.

“She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” (Revelation 12:5)

“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” (Revelation 6:1-2)

“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1 Peter 3:15)

😃
I don’t quite think the OP is talking about the end times. Good response, though.
 
The Jews were looking for an earthly kingdom, and they were disappointed when Jesus told them, “the Kingdom of God is within you” Luke 17:21.
 
I mean, I can’t think of any reason. The way I see it is like this, why shouldn’t theology dictate public policy? When I see Catholics fighting gay rights and the culture of death, we’re just begging for scraps from the table of secular democracy. Why not just start believing in theocracy again? We don’t have to burn Protestants at the stake just because Catholicism is the official guiding religion of the State. I think we can make it work. Why should’t we all?
The Church is a theocracy. To be a subject of that theocracy is a privilege, one that is freely offered to anyone who chooses it. But no one can be forced to accept it. When people have been forced, it has had disastrous results.

If God is truly all-powerful-- a living, eternal God who created all this, who is the one that is begging? We don’t have to make anything work. The Spirit rules over the material, whether people recognize it or not.
 
I mean, I can’t think of any reason. The way I see it is like this, why shouldn’t theology dictate public policy? When I see Catholics fighting gay rights and the culture of death, we’re just begging for scraps from the table of secular democracy. Why not just start believing in theocracy again? We don’t have to burn Protestants at the stake just because Catholicism is the official guiding religion of the State. I think we can make it work. Why should’t we all?
Well …first of all, you have to get over the obstacle that most Catholics in the US dont believe what the church teaches.

… Evidenced by the fact that more than half of all voting Catholics voted for the man that has one of the worst records where life is concerned.
 
The Church is a theocracy. To be a subject of that theocracy is a privilege, one that is freely offered to anyone who chooses it. But no one can be forced to accept it. When people have been forced, it has had disastrous results.

If God is truly all-powerful-- a living, eternal God who created all this, who is the one that is begging? We don’t have to make anything work. The Spirit rules over the material, whether people recognize it or not.
Exactly… it’s not the “Theo-” part that’s wrong… but the “-cracy” - the idea of forcing a rule totally discounts the idea of Free Will.
 
Let’s see…

Iran is a theocracy. Not exactly the political environment I’d want to live in. And I don’t doubt for a second that a Catholic version would be much different over time. The maxim that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” is very true, and the Church has certainly had its times in history when it has been abusive of the power it had.

I’m not sure though how the OP is defining a theocracy. In a practical way I would understand theocracy to mean a democratically-elected government, but ruled by Church law in some way? Since the Church is not a democracy and Church law is not subject to being voted on, I’m not sure that the idea of a theocracy in that sense is even plausible unless a group of Catholics just decided to create a “country” subject to the Pope. But then it isn’t a democracy any more.

If the idea is the more purely-defined “rule by God”, we already have that, though it is admittedly as individuals more than as a society, except within the Church itself.
Pope Noah I:
As long as we act out of love and orthodoxy, how could it go wrong?
I would say it would go wrong right from the initiation. Even the Apostles had their battles with each other. At the first levels we had serious issues between Paul and those who disagreed with him and went their own ways.

As long as there are human beings involved, acting “out of love” will always be elusive, especially when the temptation to power is present.

The Kingdom of God is real enough for me and I’ll just stick with that one. I don’t need a human government that just thinks it is God, or speaking for Him.

Peace,
 
It’s always OUR theocracy versus THEIR theocracy.

Why is theocracy bad?

Look at Iran.

John
 
God gives us the privaledge of free will. It’s not up to government to restrict it more than is nessesary for peace, order, and good government.

An individual may choose to lay down his life for his friends, but that becomes meaningless when government tells an individual, “the needs of the many outweigh your needs, lay down your life.” Christianity demands not only the outward forms of obedience, but obedience of the heart. That is seriously compromised in a theocracy.

I agree that it is difficult to imagine a truly theocratic government that is also a real democracy. There are ways to have a closer relationship between the two than exists in North America, but I can’t see Canadians or Americans agreeing to such a system, since there are such diverse religious views in society.
 
Personally, I don’t think Theocracy in itself is bad so much as certain versions, though there are both pros and cons to even a good theocracy.

If a Theocracy enforced a spirit of Civil religion rather than private religion, I think it could work. In other words, such a theocracy wouldn’t be forcing everyone to be (or even live like) Catholics, but would rather be ensuring that in the public, media and in the affairs of the state, Catholicism was respected and not contradicted, perhaps maybe a religious requirement to hold public office or be in a position of authority in the media. In other words, in such a theocracy, a person could believe in whatever they wanted and do accordingly in the privacy of their own homes (thus they have free will), but a Catholic would never have to be subjected to it, since the Theocracy would revolve around making the nation’s public face, rituals, and media 100% Catholic friendly. Freedom of Speech would suffer, it is true, in favor of Public Respect for a particular religion, but one or the other is going to suffer no matter what you choose (the latter suffers in our nation, as the government couldn’t care less how insensitive the public atmosphere or media is to Catholicism or any religion for that matter; in a Theocracy, it’d be the former that would suffer; deciding which one is a worse idea seems purely a matter of opinion). The benefits of living in a civil religion theocracy mainly revolve around the fact that it is more friendly to those whose faith exists (and is enough so that, if maintained, they will go to Heaven) but is not strong or heroic. In a civil religion Theocracy, someone whose faith is hanging by a thread is not as likely to be broken by the fact that their very culture is trying to push them towards secularism and spiritual complacency. Likewise, those who are plenty faithful but by nature not very outspoken can thrive in such a theocracy, since living in such a society would not require a person to be outspoken in order to make a difference. For example, in our society, it is easy for a very shy or timid Catholic to despair unless he is bold enough to stand tall and publicly condemn the evils of abortion and such. Such a threat would not exist in a Catholic culture. The biggest danger to a Civil Religion theocracy, in fact, is that over time its leaders could get power hungry and enforce private religion, not only civil religion…which would easily lead again to trying to kill/imprison heretics and unbelievers, which of course is not good.

Even though I think a Civil religion Theocracy would be wonderful, I have to admit there is a significant religious benefit to living in a secular democracy. In a secular democracy, Catholics have a chance to really stand apart and shine. Also, you know exactly who your spiritual allies are, because nobody is wearing a mask simply to appease the Government. A secular democracy also works to separate the cultural Catholics from the true Catholics. Think about it by reflecting upon this example: In our society, if a Catholic man meets a passionate, outspoken Catholic woman (or vice versa), he knows she’s probably the real deal and thus marriage material. In being an outspoken Catholic, she is not conforming to what the nation demands, because the nation doesn’t. Nor is she a lax Catholic for whom being firm in the Faith is merely convenient, because in our secular democracy it isn’t. Nor is she merely pretending to be Catholic to climb the social ladder, because Catholicism is no requirement for that. In the Theocracy, she might have had any of these ulterior motives. In a secular democracy, it’s far more likely that she’s the real McCoy, as by definition she’s struggling against the current to maintain her Faith. Of course, we all know the dangers to a Secular Democracy. If enough people believe, say, killing unborn children isn’t really murder, it’s probably going to take a miracle to ever make it illegal again, and even then it will always be just under the surface, quite likely to be legalized again when those who favor it gain favorable circumstances.

One more thing to those who believe a Theocracy is inherently inferior. It’s true that Theocracy has hardly ever been handled well (for excessively long periods) historically. However, neither has democracy. Abortion ring a bell? In a Theocracy, abortion would never be sanctioned or legal. My point isn’t that Theocracy is wonderful and flawless, but rather my point is that the only reason it often fails–the reason that people would probably not stop at a Civil Religion theocracy and would probably make it into something harsh–is because of the human misuse of it…and democracy is just as prone to that. We who live in Democratic nations have been conditioned to believe democracy is inherently superior and that the disadvantages to Democracy (such as legalized abortion) are somehow less tragic or severe than the disadvantages to Theocracy, etc. I don’t buy that for a minute. Just because it is not grown men and women being “aborted,” for example, doesn’t mean that the oppression and slaughter of the unborn is any less barbaric than the most vicious witch-hunts or heretic burnings in Theocratic history. In fact, the numbers of deaths by legalized abortion are far greater.

So there you have it. Theocracy has pros and cons. Democracy has pros and cons. Some think they balance out. Some think one is better than the other. My personal opinion is that both are equally dangerous, given mankind’s fallen nature, although I personally prefer to deal with the possible dangers of a Catholic civil religion Theocracy than with those of a secular democracy–but that’s just my personal preference. The only perfect government would be when Christ returns and establishes His rule perfectly.
 
P.S. The main thing I don’t have figured out about how a Civil Religion Theocracy would work is regarding missionary religions which differ from the State Religion, such as Islam. It seems that their obligation to preach their faiths shouldn’t be prohibited, although that would require them to go into the public arena. However, no doubt some sort of concession could be made without allowing it to derail the Catholic culture. Again, not perfect, but I’m just pointing out how it could work…if not for human nature (which perverts democracy at least just as badly).
 
And what, in the Gospels, makes you think that Christ wanted to impose a theocracy?

Didn’t Jesus say, “My kingdom is not of this world,” which is all a theocracy (including a dispensationalist millennium) is?
 
And what, in the Gospels, makes you think that Christ wanted to impose a theocracy?
Christ didn’t ever say He wanted to impose a Democracy either. In fact, he gave us no governmental advice. Therefore, if we act only on what Jesus said, we would be clamoring for anarchy, not because Jesus promoted that, but because of some notion that the only government that is okay is one that Jesus directly tried to impose. Since anarchy is clearly not correct, we have to discern which works better and is the least destructive when deciding what kind of government to have. I have already laid out pros and cons of both Theocracy and Democracy. Some people think a Theocracy would work better, and some people think Democracy works better. It’s not about what “Jesus wanted to impose” (since Jesus never spoke of wanting to impose any government, though we know government is necessary) so much as finding out what works.

For every person who says “Theocracy doesn’t work! Look at the abuses of the Inquisition and look at the witch trials!” I respond that, with Democracy, we can look at such atrocities as abortion and the outright hatred of religion that is allowed to saturate the media; my point being that both theocracy and democracy have flaws, and the flaws of democracy (such as the likelihood of such things as abortion being legal) are no less glaring than those of a Theocracy.

Again, we must have a government, regardless of whether Jesus said which kind, and Theocracy, while not being commanded by Him, is as legitimate an option as any other.
Didn’t Jesus say, "My kingdom is not of this world," which is all a theocracy (including a dispensationalist millennium) is?
Theocracy isn’t (or at least shouldn’t be) about daring to think we can make this world the perfect Kingdom of Heaven (we can’t) but is rather about trying to make a government that works. Some people believe a Theocracy would be closer to that ideal than a secular democracy. Others feel the opposite way. There are arguments for both sides. While Christ’s kingdom may, currently, be “Not of this world” we have to live in this world in the meantime. That requires that we try our best to find a government that works. Democracy has had its opportunity to prove that it works better than Theocracy, and by virtue of the millions of lives snuffed out by abortion (not because they did anything wrong, but just because they were conceived) Democracy has failed to prove that. I am not saying Theocracy is better; but when you take into account the true gravity of some of our modern tragedies born from democratic societies, it is clear that Democracy isn’t any better either. Thus I am convinced that Theocracy, while not a perfect government, is at least equally acceptable to Democracy.
 
KinderedSoul,

You basically explained what I had in mind. A Civil Theocracy. I think it’s brilliant, and that it should be done. And I don’t think anyone could say that it wouldn’t be infinitely preferable to secular democracy that gives error and untruth rights. If we could reinvigorate Catholic identity, and I know we can and must if we want to ward off both secular and Islamic extremism, we could have it voluntarily. This is highly theoretical I realize, but we can dream, can’t we? If the Marxists and the Islamists could do it, why couldn’t we? And I don’t believe the Kingdom of God and an official State Religion must be mutually exclusive. I’m not saying the Kingdom of God must, or could, be built on earth. No, Christ’s true dominion is in the human heart, but, i don’t see why it couldn’t be over the State as well.
 
KinderedSoul,

You basically explained what I had in mind. A Civil Theocracy. I think it’s brilliant, and that it should be done. And I don’t think anyone could say that it wouldn’t be infinitely preferable to secular democracy that gives error and untruth rights. If we could reinvigorate Catholic identity, and I know we can and must if we want to ward off both secular and Islamic extremism, we could have it voluntarily. This is highly theoretical I realize, but we can dream, can’t we? If the Marxists and the Islamists could do it, why couldn’t we? And I don’t believe the Kingdom of God and an official States religion must be mutually exclusive.
We are very much of like minds on this, my brother. I’m a dreamer, too, and I would love to live in a society where the very fabric of the culture and social structure was Catholic. I would like to clarify (as I’m sure you intended) that it would be different, ideally, than what Marxists and (extremist) Muslims do: For one, as I suggested earlier, I believe a Civil Catholic society would allow other religions whose beliefs demanded missionary activity to do so, as long as it was in a way that didn’t threaten the Catholic culture and didn’t seek to infiltrate the fabric of the government or media; this is in the interests of never harassing people of other faiths, who are doing only what they are obligated do, the way we ourselves have been harassed in such countries as Communist China, etc (The Golden Rule applies, after all). Other than that one problem (which would be hard but, I’m sure, not impossible to work out) I believe it could be workable, and like yourself I would infinitely prefer such a nation to the secular democracy we have now. I’m not sure how we would ever be able to realize that dream in our modern world, but like you say, we can most certainly continue to dream.
 
“* We don’t have to burn Protestants at the stake just because Catholicism is the official guiding religion of the State. I think we can make it work. Why should’t we all?
*”~~~ PN1

No, but eventually we would. Here is why, IMHO. In esoteric Catholicism it is held that all religions through time and space have two aspects. One is the face of the religion that is a matter of times and culture mixed and developed by historic events. The esoteric, or the core essence of these religions is homogeneous without respect to time, place, person or culture. This is where they agree, as they recognize the Source of our Being and of Creation. But very very few have the capacity to deal with the ideas inherent in the core tachings, so they go with the face of the religion whatever it mihgt be, *if they even know that an esoteric form exists. * If they did, they might very well do to that part of their religion what the Jews allegedly did to Jesus.

Notwithstanding that, in the topical or superficial aspects of religion, we find people who are capable of making statements such as quoted above from the OP. As a friend of mine on here just said " I find it amazing when I realize that all religions are talking about the same damned thing, and yet the world goes to war over the cosmetic differences." How true. If you don’t beleive me, watch the reactrion to this post if it is allowed to stay on.

That is why a theocracy won’t work, because you want a Catholic one, Henry VIII wants an Anglican one, the Lutherans, Metodists, Baptists and Calvinists all want their version, the Buddhists only care in that they would likely be persecuted, etc, etc. Why in the Name of the God you seem to ignorantly worship do you think that we started as a demcracy with freedom of reltigon and separation of church and state? It was to prevent the inevitable persecutionas and hangings of the people of whatever religion wasn’t in power.

Here is Senator Barry Goldwater on the topic: “On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.” ~Barry Goldwater

And here is Samuel Clemens: “Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion - several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven.” ~Mark Twain

And here is Desmond Tutu:“There is a story, which is fairly well known, about when the missionaries came to Africa. They had the Bible and we, the natives, had the land. They said “Let us pray,” and we dutifully shut our eyes. When we opened them, why, they now had the land and we had the Bible.” ~ Religious Human Rights and the Bible

“There are ten church members by inheritance for every one by conviction.” ~Author Unknown

“There were honest people long before there were Christians and there are, God be praised, still honest people where there are no Christians. It could therefore easily be possible that people are Christians because true Christianity corresponds to what they would have been even if Christianity did not exist.” ~G.C. Lichtenberg

“There seems to be a terrible misunderstanding on the part of a great many people to the effect that when you cease to believe you may cease to behave.” ~Louis Kronenberger

“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few his precepts!
O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments.”
~Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1757

There are many many more, if you wish, outside the Catholic ones. I presume you have access to those so didn’t go there. I mean beyond the usual reference to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the dismanuation of a whole people by our friend Christopher Columbus, etc, etc. You know what dismanuation is, don’t you?

Blessings and Best,

Bindar Doondat, FZPC
 
We are very much of like minds on this, my brother. I’m a dreamer, too, and I would love to live in a society where the very fabric of the culture and social structure was Catholic. I would like to clarify (as I’m sure you intended) that it would be different, ideally, than what Marxists and (extremist) Muslims do: For one, as I suggested earlier, I believe a Civil Catholic society would allow other religions whose beliefs demanded missionary activity to do so, as long as it was in a way that didn’t threaten the Catholic culture and didn’t seek to infiltrate the fabric of the government or media; this is in the interests of never harassing people of other faiths, who are doing only what they are obligated do, the way we ourselves have been harassed in such countries as Communist China, etc (The Golden Rule applies, after all). Other than that one problem (which would be hard but, I’m sure, not impossible to work out) I believe it could be workable, and like yourself I would infinitely prefer such a nation to the secular democracy we have now. I’m not sure how we would ever be able to realize that dream in our modern world, but like you say, we can most certainly continue to dream.
Lol. I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am to know that I’m not alone in my thinking.

As you said, it doesn’t seem possible to attain this dream in our modern, secularized enviornment where seperation of Church and State has become dogma for everyone, believers and non-believers alike. This is why this revolution must begin as a revolution of hearts and minds, a re-orienting of our beings towards the Almighty. We could never hope to officially enforce Catholicism while practically half of the visible Church doesn’t accept or practice it. However, this doesn’t mean we have to relegate this dream into the realm of the un-attainable. Indeed, we cannot if we want to see the revival of Christian civilization. In the face of a radical Islam and an aggressive secularism that has crippled us from within, secular democracy has proved itself to be a house built upon sand. I feel that it is only logical that we do away with it. As far as I know, the Constitution of the United States came from a bunch of Masons, Deists and others who rebelled against the guidance of the Church in State affairs. If that is in fact the case, then it should be done away with like the cancer that it is. Maybe I’m pushing it with my rhetoric, but that’s only because I feel so strongly about this. America has allowed abortion. America allowed slavery. America has encouraged the banishment of Almighty God from public policy. America is founded upon the ideals of freedom to spread heresy and untruth. I think that it’s time for a change, a big one. We need to start dreaming again, and attempting to translate those dreams into realities. We can rebuild Christendom. Am I wrong?
 
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