Can someone who rejects the Gospel be saved?

[Gorgias]

Please show the Church Teaching which uses this language “knowing THAT IT IS TRUE”!

I have. Time and again. You’re making an invalid distinction here. After all, could the Church possibly mean that there is a consequence for “knowing that the teaching of the Gospel is false”? That would be absurd. Therefore, the knowledge being talked about is the knowledge that the teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation is true.

One can “know” the Gospel without knowing that it is true.

That’s why mere awareness of the Gospel is not the standard that the Church proposes.

Faith is necessary for Salvation.

Necessary, but not sufficient on its own. (See James 2.)

 

[Ammi]

I have. Time and again.

No, you havent. Not once.

You’re making an invalid distinction here. After all, could the Church possibly mean that there is a consequence for “knowing that the teaching of the Gospel is false”? That would be absurd. Therefore, the knowledge being talked about is the knowledge that the teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation is true.

Scripture says it’s a matter of the heart. Rejection and disbelieve are done in the heart. This can happen without “accepting as the truth”. Accepting as the truth, would be belief, since it would take conviction in the heart. There is no proof of the Gospel, except for those who witnessed Him die and rise from the dead.

That’s why mere awareness of the Gospel is not the standard that the Church proposes.

This is your personal opinion.

Necessary, but not sufficient on its own. (See James 2.

Faith is necessary to believe. Knowing the Gospel as the truth is belief. You seem to think one has to believe, and then disbelieve in order to be condemned for disbelief.

I think you are conflating two separate things.

1.) Belief in the Gospel
2.) Belief that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

 

[Gorgias]

Ammi:

Please show the Church Teaching which uses this language “knowing THAT IT IS TRUE”!

Gorgias:

I have. Time and again.

No, you havent. Not once.

If you want to quote Monty Python, please do it properly…

This is your personal opinion.

No, it’s the Church’s teaching. It’s just your personal opinion that this isn’t true!

 

[Ammi]

It would be very simple for you to provide support of your claim. Just quote the source you are getting your claim from. We can all look and see.

 

[Gorgias]

It would be very simple for you to provide support of your claim. Just quote the source you are getting your claim from. We can all look and see.

Look and see in this thread, then. I’ve quoted LG and DI multiple times. Your repeated requests for the same information, after it’s already been provided, are becoming tiresome. Sorry…

 

[Ammi]

Lumen Gentium

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel…

…Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

Notice the Church doesnt use your words “as the truth” or “accept as the truth”. Furthermore, these passages do not mention a decided “unbelief” or “rejection” in the persons who can attain salvation. Unbelief and rejection being key to a persons self condemnation.

 

[Gorgias]

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel …

OK, so… if we’re talking about a different class of people (i.e., those who have heard but not yet accepted the Gospel), then why would you quote the section that doesn’t address that consideration? Are you literally trying to build a strawman?

The relevant line from LG is “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

The standard is knowing that it is necessary to enter and remain in the Catholic Church. It’s not “hearing that it is necessary” or even “knowing that the Church teaches that it is necessary”. It’s actually knowing that this is true. One who hears but believe likewise rejects this teaching – in other words, he does not know it to be true.

Notice the Church doesnt use your words “as the truth” or “accept as the truth”.

It’s the meaning of the words, Ammi.

 

[Ammi]

OK, so… if we’re talking about a different class of people (i.e., those who have heard but not yet accepted the Gospel), then why would you quote the section that doesn’t address that consideration? Are you literally trying to build a strawman?..The relevant line from LG is “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

No. This quote does not mention the Gospel, or disbelief.

 

[Gorgias]

No. This quote does not mention the Gospel

Right. Because any official teaching of the Church that doesn’t explicitly mention the Gospel is null and void.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

No. This quote does not mention the Gospel

Right. Because any official teaching of the Church that doesn’t explicitly mention the Gospel is null and void.

Just the relative Teachings to the OP

 

[thistle]

Just the relative Teachings to the OP

If you know the Catholic Church you know the Gospel.

 

[Ammi]

Two different matters, and lots of people know the Gospel, who do not know “Jesus made the Catholic Church necessary for each persons salvation”.

I’m addressing the Gospel, and if someone can not believe the Gospel, yet be saved. To hear it, know its message, but not believe it, or accept it as the truth, and (as some claim) be seeking God and relying on His grace to do what is right and be saved.

 

[Gorgias]

Two different matters, and lots of people know the Gospel, who do not know “Jesus made the Catholic Church necessary for each persons salvation”.

That’s the salient point. Those who know the latter are not invincibly ignorant; those who only know the former are. Thanks for pointing out the teaching of the Church that you’ve been denying for 300 posts…

I’m addressing the Gospel

It’s disappointing that you’re asserting a discontinuity between the Gospel and the teachings of the Church. Now that we have proof that this is what you’re asserting, it’s plain what your position is.

 

[Ammi]

Now you are claiming a person has to know both or neither?

 

[thistle]

Now you are claiming a person has to know both or neither?

If you know the Church you know its teachings which means you know the Gospel.
There is no disconnect/separation between Church and the Gospel.

 

[Ammi]

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved .”

And how do we know who Jesus is, to know about His Church Teachings and how it relates to the Catholic Church?

You have to know the Gospel of Jesus before forming knowledge about Church concepts and original intentions of Christ.

Even though knowledge must grow, in the life of a Christian, rejection and disbelief in either the Gospel or the Church’s necessary function and life, is grave sin.

So yes, even rejecting and disbelieving after hearing and being made aware, is turning from salvation. But searching and learning can be done without rejecting and disbelieving.

 

[TheLittleLady]

They have until their last moment of life to accept the Gospel.

 

[Latin]

They have until their last moment of life to accept the Gospel.

While your above statement is correct, it is only half of the truth.

As Catholics we have the FULLNESS OF THE REVEALED TRUTH.

The other half of the truth according to Catholic Soteriology:

They have until their last moment of life to accept the Gospel, by God at their last moment, causes them to FREELY (CCC 308; 2022; etc.) accept the Gospel by His provisions of all the graces necessary for its accomplishment (ante prævisa merita).
.
God bless

 

[Ammi]

Are you saying I cant use weapons to help someone believe?

 

[TheLittleLady]

Not sure I implied coercion, but, of course, one would not force a deathbed conversion.