Can somepne explain this to me?

[shannyk]

There are several threads going where the sentiment of “I feel uncomfortable when a person does X. Therefore I feel X is inappropriate and people should not being doing X where it can be publicly seen”.

Why is it that when people are doing X and X is neither immoral, illegal, or objectively offensive, that they have a right to be ‘free’ from seeing or witnessing it?

Why is the burden then turned on the innocent doer of X?

Why doesn’t the viewer of X that ‘feels’ a certain way have the onus upon him to remove himself from view OR better yet, better inform his sensibilities and conscience?

I’m just really perplexed by this Since when do we live in a society where our personal preferences and whims can be used aggressively against another person who is doing nothing wrong?

Why do we feel such entitlement to never see anything that makes us ‘feel’ awkward or uncomfortable?

Why as Catholics do we not have the obligation to order our feelings and consciences to conform to a like mindedness with the Church on such matters? I. E not be obstinate in feeling something is wrong when it’s objectively known that it isn’t?

Help me out here. It seems the world is upside down when I read these threads. Immodesty is fun and cool and natural and normal is immodest and offensive. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone!!:hypno:

 

[mommamaree]

Sorry, I think I might have contributed to your frustration by starting that breastfeeding thread! Didn’t mean to rile anybody up; in fact, someone warned me soon after starting that poll that it was going to attract a bit of controversy. Whoops! I was just interested to get a wider understanding of people’s level of comfort, since as a nursing mom for multiple babies, I have encountered both scorn (even within the family) and encouragement (even from total strangers). So it was curiosity, not a desire for drama!
Anyway, about your question regarding a sense of entitlement…I don’t get where that comes from either. It seems odd to me that people who are doing nothing wrong in an objective sense should feel shame for offending the sensibilities of others who might disagree with their actions (whether because of timing and location, or because of the validity or value of their actions). [Sigh] Oh well, we must just try to have compassion and to gently educate, I suppose. And if they still have a problem with what we are doing, then either they will have to leave, or we will have to leave. Who needs the drama?
So I hope you aren’t too frustrated by my posting that poll! I really was hoping for an interesting discussion, not an angry debate. Although I do think, IMO, everybody has been behaving charitably on the breastfeeding thread.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Why as Catholics do we not have the obligation to order our feelings and consciences to conform to a like mindedness with the Church on such matters? I. E not be obstinate in feeling something is wrong when it’s objectively known that it isn’t?

Help me out here. It seems the world is upside down when I read these threads. Immodesty is fun and cool and natural and normal is immodest and offensive. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone!!:hypno:

Anyway, about your question regarding a sense of entitlement…I don’t get where that comes from either. It seems odd to me that people who are doing nothing wrong in an objective sense should feel shame for offending the sensibilities of others who might disagree with their actions (whether because of timing and location, or because of the validity or value of their actions). [Sigh] Oh well, we must just try to have compassion and to gently educate, I suppose. And if they still have a problem with what we are doing, then either they will have to leave, or we will have to leave. Who needs the drama?

You know… something just dawned on me from the other breastfeeding thread…

I think it’s a matter of perception.

For example… from that other thread - I commented on a similar experience as another poster… and took entirely different feelings out of that situation - feelings of respect rather than disgust (see those links for the exact posts I’m referring to)…

I ALWAYS try to put myself into the mindset of my neighbor out of respect… whether that mindset is wrong doesn’t matter to me…
I just want to be respectful rather than invasive - regardless of whether I’m “invading” into an incorrect mindset…

So yes, I agree that objectively nothing is wrong - but that doesn’t change the fact that others may not have that same mindset. I simply try to respect that.

 

[HolyInnocent]

Shanny… I feel your frustration… ((((((((Shanny)))))))

I seriously think that this goes way beyond breastfeeding though… when states make laws prohibiting wearing of deodorant because some people don’t like it… or when smoking is banned because having a smoking and non-smoking section isn’t good enough… Common sense tells us that if the place is too smokey… you don’t go there or if someone wears offensive deodorant or perfume, you move away… but no… it seems they think that their right to comfort beats your right to wear deodorant or smoke… or whatever the in vogue “issue” is.

No offense (and I know I am going to get blasted), but if every driver has to have insurance why is there a law that says you HAVE to wear a seatbelt? Now, don’t get me wrong, I do wear a seatbelt but as an example, why should I be required to wear one? Can’t the insurance companies just cover (at a higher deductible) if they can prove that someone wasn’t wearing theirs?

What about the smoke thing? I know I avoided places that didn’t have good ventilation because I could literally taste hairspray on Friday and Saturday nights… I didn’t go to management and say, “You have to ban hairspray” Same thing goes for smoking or deodorant or stinky perfume… don’t we move away from someone that has BO?

Last week I actually heard someone complain that the car in front of them had a driver who was smoking and they could smell it at a stop light… geez! I wanted to scream, “Suck it up and if it bothers you that much, drive an alternate route or time!”

 

[PatriceA]

Shanny… I feel your frustration… ((((((((Shanny)))))))

I seriously think that this goes way beyond breastfeeding though… when states make laws prohibiting wearing of deodorant because some people don’t like it… or when smoking is banned because having a smoking and non-smoking section isn’t good enough… Common sense tells us that if the place is too smokey… you don’t go there or if someone wears offensive deodorant or perfume, you move away… but no… it seems they think that their right to comfort beats your right to wear deodorant or smoke… or whatever the in vogue “issue” is.

No offense (and I know I am going to get blasted), but if every driver has to have insurance why is there a law that says you HAVE to wear a seatbelt? Now, don’t get me wrong, I do wear a seatbelt but as an example, why should I be required to wear one? Can’t the insurance companies just cover (at a higher deductible) if they can prove that someone wasn’t wearing theirs?

What about the smoke thing? I know I avoided places that didn’t have good ventilation because I could literally taste hairspray on Friday and Saturday nights… I didn’t go to management and say, “You have to ban hairspray” Same thing goes for smoking or deodorant or stinky perfume… don’t we move away from someone that has BO?

Last week I actually heard someone complain that the car in front of them had a driver who was smoking and they could smell it at a stop light… geez! I wanted to scream, “Suck it up and if it bothers you that much, drive an alternate route or time!”

I don’t think seatbelts (its a matter of saving lives) and smoking (second hand smoke is unhealthy) are very good examples of what the OP is talking about since both can be argued to be for the good of the whole community.

But the “entitlement” issue. I think its a backlash to everyone having to be politically correct. I think people want to push back when they feel they have to tolerate every single issue or circumstance.

 

[Jea9]

There are several threads going where the sentiment of “I feel uncomfortable when a person does X. Therefore I feel X is inappropriate and people should not being doing X where it can be publicly seen”.

Why is it that when people are doing X and X is neither immoral, illegal, or objectively offensive, that they have a right to be ‘free’ from seeing or witnessing it?

Why is the burden then turned on the innocent doer of X?

Why doesn’t the viewer of X that ‘feels’ a certain way have the onus upon him to remove himself from view OR better yet, better inform his sensibilities and conscience?

My initial thought is that people today are just inherently selfish. We are in SUCH a ‘me, me, me’ world right now that I think it just encourages these thoughts and feelings. My second thought is that I think it goes both ways. I think that Em makes a really good point. That while the doer of X may be innocent, that there is some courtesy that could be shown by said doer in trying to make those around him/her comfortable. Not complete strangers mind you, I mean people with whom one is around frequently and knows. But, please know that I think it goes both ways, the one that is uncomfortable can and should do everything in his/her power to remove themselves from the situation.

You know… something just dawned on me from the other breastfeeding thread…

I think it’s a matter of perception.

For example… from that other thread - I commented on a similar experience as another poster… and took entirely different feelings out of that situation - feelings of respect rather than disgust (see those links for the exact posts I’m referring to)…

I ALWAYS try to put myself into the mindset of my neighbor out of respect… whether that mindset is wrong doesn’t matter to me…
I just want to be respectful rather than invasive - regardless of whether I’m “invading” into an incorrect mindset…

So yes, I agree that objectively nothing is wrong - but that doesn’t change the fact that others may not have that same mindset. I simply try to respect that.

I agree with you totally! It really should be a two way street.

 

[happymommy]

You know… something just dawned on me from the other breastfeeding thread…

I think it’s a matter of perception.

For example… from that other thread - I commented on a similar experience as another poster… and took entirely different feelings out of that situation - feelings of respect rather than disgust (see those links for the exact posts I’m referring to)…

I ALWAYS try to put myself into the mindset of my neighbor out of respect… whether that mindset is wrong doesn’t matter to me…
I just want to be respectful rather than invasive - regardless of whether I’m “invading” into an incorrect mindset…

So yes, I agree that objectively nothing is wrong - but that doesn’t change the fact that others may not have that same mindset. I simply try to respect that.

I think it would be easy to take away different feelings from a situation if you weren’t there:blush:
I did try to put others feelings first, that’s why I moved my chair up against the wall and covered myself, so that if anyone wanted to sit there it wouldn’t be uncomfortable for them. And if they would have just smiled nicely and then stood, I wouldn’t have thought a thing of it. It was the total look of disgust on their faces that made me feel the way I did. I guess I don’t know how to read people then if that was suppose to be respectful and as I said in my other post I guess we will just go to different services from now on or I’ll just stay home.

 

[Nec5]

This sounds like a libertarian argument (loosely defined as you have the right to do whatever you wish as long as it does not violate someone else’s rights).

In general, it’s a decent philosophy to follow. However, society must balance these things and make necessarily subjective decisions. For example, there is no real convincingly logical reason for public nudity to be banned. Health concerns? Please. There are plenty of clothed people that are dirtier than clean unclothed people.

Yet, I and presumably most of everyone here is against public nudity. It’s not affecting us directly; we don’t have to look at these folks anymore than we have to look at an obscene t-shirt. It’s a subjective decision and the right one to make. This is sadly being challenged with increasing frequency.

The great thing about America, well what used to be great anyway, is the wide latitude people had regarding their choices. The seat belt and virtually all of the traffic laws are great examples of people losing their liberties in exchange for the illusion of safety. Now that smoking has essentially been banned (or close to it), people are moving on to control salt. We’ve moved from an action and consequence/crime and punishment society to one that endorses preventative criminology. The nation is slowly shedding individual liberties for the comforting blanket of government.

It’s a balancing act. The biggest problem is the balkanization (dividing up) of the shared cultural values we once held. These subjective decisions that once seemed immutable are now shifting. Right is becoming wrong and wrong has become right. It’s all connected with religion and all the controversies you see in the news and in these forums.

In short, people no longer share many of the same un-codified cultural values. As an example, I disagree with the original post’s comment about the smoker in the car. 50 years ago, the issue probably was not even discussed?

 

[HolyInnocent]

I don’t think seatbelts (its a matter of saving lives) and smoking (second hand smoke is unhealthy) are very good examples of what the OP is talking about since both can be argued to be for the good of the whole community.

But the “entitlement” issue. I think its a backlash to everyone having to be politically correct. I think people want to push back when they feel they have to tolerate every single issue or circumstance.

Patrice… with all due respect… why do you think it is your right to tell me I have to do something or not do something just because it is good for me or not good for me? This is exactly what I am talking about… Do you drink alcohol? I don’t… So if I think it is bad for you
because it causes liver damage so you think I should tell you that you can’t drink? Of course not! It is your choice right? This is exactly the same as seatbelts. I know you can argue second hand smoke but what about it? If you are concerned about it, just stay away from where smokers are… you don’t HAVE to go to bars or restaurants… your attitude on this is entitlement… or don’t you see that? As it is… I am an avid seatbelt wearer and anyone who rides with me has to wear one… but that is MY choice in MY car. What others do in their cars is NOT my business…