Can Son(Jesus) do anything by himself without Father(God)?

[hasantas]

Hello!

I am a Muslim and I want to understand Christianity faith especially about Trinity. As much I can learn that Son and Holy Spirit are assumed to be part of Deity. But I wonder how that work. I mean what Father can and cannot do? And what are limits for Son and Holy Spirit. Do Son and Holy Spirit can use all part of deity? Or are each three same at all? And how that issue revealed in Gospels?

 

[Loving_disciple]

This is a tricky question. Each part of the trinity has something that is like a job that they do but they doesn’t mean they are limited.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is a tricky question. Each part of the trinity has something that is like a job that they do but they doesn’t mean they are limited.

Yes, The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, The Father is pleased with the Son. And it pleases the Son to do the Will of His Father. The Father gives all to the Son except being Father.

The Son does what ever the Father is doing, when the Father gives life, the Son does likewise.

From the divine economy the three persons of the Trinity derive their name distinct in revelation, yet never divided or separated from what is consubstantial.

When each person Loves, the act or distribution is revealed in each, from the Father who begets and sends, and from the Son who does the Father’s will and sends the Holy Spirit, whom the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life makes known the works of the Son.

Peace be with you

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, The Father is pleased with the Son. And it pleases the Son to do the Will of His Father. The Father gives all to the Son except being Father.

The Son does what ever the Father is doing, when the Father gives life, the Son does likewise.

From the divine economy the three persons of the Trinity derive their name distinct in revelation, yet never divided or separated from what is consubstantial.

When each person Loves, the act or distribution is revealed in each, from the Father who begets and sends, and from the Son who does the Father’s will and sends the Holy Spirit, whom the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life makes known the works of the Son.

Peace be with you

How did the Church Fathers (I assume) figure out this relationship: from the words of Jesus Himself through the Gospels, from the Hebrew Bible with regard to the Holy Spirit, or in some other manner? Also, did this relationship between the Persons of the Trinity evolve over a period of time; in other words, when did the Church decide upon this?

 

[frizzgrig]

How did the Church Fathers (I assume) figure out this relationship: from the words of Jesus Himself through the Gospels, from the Hebrew Bible with regard to the Holy Spirit, or in some other manner? Also, did this relationship between the Persons of the Trinity evolve over a period of time; in other words, when did the Church decide upon this?

The Church defined the doctrine of the trinity at the council of Nicea in 325.

The earliest trinitarian discussion (outside Jesus commanding us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) predates Ignatius of Antioch’s exhortation in 110 AD.

The Church never “decided” this, it is held as revealed as part of the deposit of faith.

 

[Loving_disciple]

Hello!

I am a Muslim and I want to understand Christianity faith especially about Trinity. As much I can learn that Son and Holy Spirit are assumed to be part of Deity. But I wonder how that work. I mean what Father can and cannot do? And what are limits for Son and Holy Spirit. Do Son and Holy Spirit can use all part of deity? Or are each three same at all? And how that issue revealed in Gospels?

We don’t use the gospels for this teaching while there are verse the hint at it. The Catholic Church does not have only the Bible as a source of teaching

 

[meltzerboy]

The Church defined the doctrine of the trinity at the council of Nicea in 325.

The earliest trinitarian discussion (outside Jesus commanding us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) predates Ignatius of Antioch’s exhortation in 110 AD.

The Church never “decided” this, it is held as revealed as part of the deposit of faith.

Thank you for the information.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

How did the Church Fathers (I assume) figure out this relationship: from the words of Jesus Himself through the Gospels, from the Hebrew Bible with regard to the Holy Spirit, or in some other manner? Also, did this relationship between the Persons of the Trinity evolve over a period of time; in other words, when did the Church decide upon this?

frizzgrig summed it up briefly. First of all the Trinity remains a mystery, no one has or can define the mystery of the Trinity. Jesus the Son of God revealed the Father and the Father revealed the Son, and the Holy Spirit makes the revelation known to us in the Spirit of Truth.

God never recieves Testimony from man. God is the one who gives Testimony of who the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit reveals never man.

The Son and the Holy Spirit were not revealed in the Old Covenant only pre-announced, yet Jesus revealed all to the apostles of what was written about Him see all of Luke 24.

I find this to be a great subject that digs deeper into the mysteries. I love how the Spirit was not revealed in the Old Covenant, yet He is mystically seen through the New Covenant that Jesus revealed, It’s beautiful.

The key to reach into the mysteries of the Trinity begins with John 1;1-14, and again at Jesus baptism, and especially in Matthew 16 when God the Father reveals God the Son to Peter from God the Holy Spirit, I get goose bumps just meditating on Matthew 16 when after the Father reveals the Son to Peter, Jesus begins to build His Church upon Peter = Rock.

Peace be with you

 

[peace2u2]

According to Sacred Scripture, the answer to your question is no.
I was taught that the Holy Spirit is the love between God our Father and Jesus His Only Son.

The Gospel of John is very beautiful to read and illustrates this love: An introduction to John:
usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=John&ch=

In the first chapter of John, it states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” is referring to Jesus. It goes on to say that “All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.”

To read more:
usccb.org/bible/john/1

Also if you want to do a Bible Study on line on the Gospel of John:
agapebiblestudy.com/John_Gospel/John_Gospel_Menu.php

May God’s Blessings be upon you.

 

[peace2u2]

I love how the Spirit was not revealed in the Old Covenant,

I don’t agree - there is overwhelming evidence that the Holy Spirit was revealed in the Old Covenant in fact right from the beginning:

Gen1:1-5:In the beginning God [Elohim] created heaven and earth. 2 Now the earth was a formless void [toho ra bohu], there was darkness over the deep, **with a divine wind [ruah] **sweeping [rahap] over the waters. 3God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light. 4God saw that light was good, and God divided light from darkness. 5God called the light ‘day’ and the darkness he called ‘night.’ Evening came and morning came: the first day.

divine wind or the word “ruah” is the Holy Spirit -

 

[dronald]

Can Allah do anything without Allah? That’s how a Christian might read this. They work in Unity, because they are One.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

peace2u2;11720988]I don’t agree - there is overwhelming evidence that the Holy Spirit was revealed in the Old Covenant in fact right from the beginning

:

The Spirit was not revealed to our humanity because He was not sent yet until after the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of the Law was not given in the Old Covenant. The decalogue was the moral and natural law, which Jesus fulfilled by His own blood, so that the Spirit of the Law (LOVE) can be sent from the Father to raise us from the death of our sins, to become son’s in the Only Begotten Son of God.

We can read the old covenant, with the mind of Christ and see the Holy Spirit mystically present, because Jesus opened the scriptures to us. Without the Spirit of the New and everlasting covenant, you would not be able to have eyes to see or ears to hear what the Spirit reveals in the Spirit of Truth from the Law, the prophets, the psalms, which the Spirit declares to the Church.

Gen1:1-5:In the beginning God [Elohim] created heaven and earth. 2 Now the earth was a formless void [toho ra bohu], there was darkness over the deep, **with a divine wind [ruah] **sweeping [rahap] over the waters. 3God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light. 4God saw that light was good, and God divided light from darkness. 5God called the light ‘day’ and the darkness he called ‘night.’ Evening came and morning came: the first day.

divine wind or the word “ruah” is the Holy Spirit -

Ask a Jew what the “ruah” is? He/she will tell you it’s the “breath” of God", never the Holy Spirit, for the Jews read it according to the natural law that leads to death. You and I read it according to the natural law fulfilled in the eternal Spirit of the Law that gives eternal life, that is why we profess "the Holy Spirit is the Lord the giver of life who has spoken through the prophets". To the Christian “ruah” is both the breath of God revealed by Jesus to be the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life.

John 16:7…for if I do not go away, the Counsellor will not come to you, but if I go,I will send Him to you

John 16:13-15 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth…whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you…He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said thatHe will take what is mine and declare to you".

CCC 715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise… see Ezekiel 11:19, 36:25-28, 37:1-14 who preannounces the Spirit of God to come by way of water baptism, which never get’s fulfilled until the baptism Jesus commissioned the Church with in that one name “Father, Son and the Holy Spirit”.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Can Allah do anything without Allah? That’s how a Christian might read this. They work in Unity, because they are One.

Can you give an explanation of, how your faith declares the three distinct persons of the blessed Trinity is One God?

The only one who has revealed this is Jesus and the Catholic Church professes it in faith.

 

[dronald]

Can you give an explanation of, how your faith declares the three distinct persons of the blessed Trinity is One God?

The only one who has revealed this is Jesus and the Catholic Church professes it in faith.

Do we really need to make this thread about that too?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Do we really need to make this thread about that too?

The subject follows the OP. We agree on the one God. I’d hope to hear your take on the subject of only One God, revealed in three distinct persons of the blessed Trinity. I agreed with you.

When the Trinity is eternal being there is no division, separation or confusion in what is consubstantial One God.

The Divine economy reveals the distinct persons which gives that one name Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The Divine economy reveals the presence of God, not necessarily God’s essence which is unapproachable by human standards, for no one has ever seen God and lived. Only the Son has seen the Father because He comes from the Father.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

=peace2u2;11720943]According to Sacred Scripture, the answer to your question is no.
I was taught that the Holy Spirit is the love between God our Father and Jesus His Only Son.

God is Love. God is Spirit.

Who gave up the Spirit on the cross? Was it God the Father? or God the Son?

 

[meltzerboy]

:

The Spirit was not revealed to our humanity because He was not sent yet until after the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of the Law was not given in the Old Covenant. The decalogue was the moral and natural law, which Jesus fulfilled by His own blood, so that the Spirit of the Law (LOVE) can be sent from the Father to raise us from the death of our sins, to become son’s in the Only Begotten Son of God.

We can read the old covenant, with the mind of Christ and see the Holy Spirit mystically present, because Jesus opened the scriptures to us. Without the Spirit of the New and everlasting covenant, you would not be able to have eyes to see or ears to hear what the Spirit reveals in the Spirit of Truth from the Law, the prophets, the psalms, which the Spirit declares to the Church.

Ask a Jew what the “ruah” is? He/she will tell you it’s the “breath” of God", never the Holy Spirit, for the Jews read it according to the natural law that leads to death. You and I read it according to the natural law fulfilled in the eternal Spirit of the Law that gives eternal life, that is why we profess "the Holy Spirit is the Lord the giver of life who has spoken through the prophets". To the Christian “ruah” is both the breath of God revealed by Jesus to be the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life.

John 16:7…for if I do not go away, the Counsellor will not come to you, but if I go,I will send Him to you

John 16:13-15 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth…whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you…He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said thatHe will take what is mine and declare to you".

CCC 715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise… see Ezekiel 11:19, 36:25-28, 37:1-14 who preannounces the Spirit of God to come by way of water baptism, which never get’s fulfilled until the baptism Jesus commissioned the Church with in that one name “Father, Son and the Holy Spirit”.

Peace be with you

The meanings of ruach, as well as nefesh and neshama, are quite complex according to Jewish thought. Their meanings depend on the context in which they are used, for one, and the meaning of each of these terms in the Hebrew Bible differs somewhat from the mystical description attributed to them in the Kabbalah. Further, Judaism goes well beyond the natural order in its belief that the soul upon death returns to G-d (see Ecclesiastes 3:19) and that the body and soul function together in harmony rather than discord.

 

[ltwin]

I was under the impression that the Old Testament talked a lot about the Spirit of God. Of course, there was not Trinitarian understanding of God back then, but the Spirit of God is specifically mentioned in a number of places, especially in connection to prophecy. An example is Joel 2:28.

 

[hasantas]

According to Sacred Scripture, the answer to your question is no.
I was taught that the Holy Spirit is the love between God our Father and Jesus His Only Son.

The Gospel of John is very beautiful to read and illustrates this love: An introduction to John:
usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=John&ch=

In the first chapter of John, it states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” is referring to Jesus. It goes on to say that “All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.”

To read more:
usccb.org/bible/john/1

Also if you want to do a Bible Study on line on the Gospel of John:
agapebiblestudy.com/John_Gospel/John_Gospel_Menu.php

May God’s Blessings be upon you.

“Love” is the one of big reason to create universes for God. Love is tie and attachment of creatures that God loves what he created. Love is very important but can love be creator and be part of deity("…I was taught that the Holy Spirit is the love between God our Father and Jesus…") I have red Bible some but ı can not conclude that and ı did not see any explicative revealation in Bible about Holy Spirit

(“İn the beginning was the word”) is that “beginning” for mankind and time or for God? I know there is no any beginning and time for God because God is eternal and timeless. So Word referes to Jesus because Jesus is Word of God (kelimetullah=word of God). Words of God are relating to God. But for Jesus word of God is an attribute. So ı do not understand Jesus was eternal(there is no certain evidence) and there is no any thing about Jesus in OT in that way yet there should be good news that Jesus will come.

 

[ltwin]

“Love” is the one of big reason to create universes for God. Love is tie and attachment of creatures that God loves what he created. Love is very important but can love be creator and be part of deity("…I was taught that the Holy Spirit is the love between God our Father and Jesus…") I have red Bible some but ı can not conclude that and ı did not see any explicative revealation in Bible about Holy Spirit

1 John 4:8 – “Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

This is one of the reasons why the Trinity is so profound. Within the Trinity, there is perfect love, which is why the Son does not strive to usurp the role of the Father and the why the Holy Spirit comes not to glorify himself but always comes to glorify Christ.

(“İn the beginning was the word”) is that “beginning” for mankind and time or for God? I know there is no any beginning and time for God because God is eternal and timeless. So Word referes to Jesus because Jesus is Word of God (kelimetullah=word of God). Words of God are relating to God. But for Jesus word of God is an attribute. So ı do not understand Jesus was eternal(there is no certain evidence) and there is no any thing about Jesus in OT in that way yet there should be good news that Jesus will come.

How do you come to that conclusion? John 1:1-5 is quite clear and unambiguous,

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”

The Word is clearly eternal. The Word was alongside and in fellowship with God. The Word was God. The Gospel writer then begins to use the masculine pronoun “he” to describe “the Word.” He was with God. Everything that exists was made through him.

The Gospel writer goes on to say in John

“14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.”

The Word is Jesus Christ. And the Word is God. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.