Can the Bible be in Error, Historically?

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It’s actually around two years: the ministry of Jesus in John begins near the first recorded Passover and ends in the third. You only get the idea of a three and a half year of ministry from an early Christian interpretation of the ‘half week’ in Daniel’s prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.
My closer to 3 years is from the downside i.e. less than 3 years.

3 passovers +
the time before the 1st reported passover (John 1:29 to John 2:13) +
40 days to his ascension…

Sorry if I gave the impression it is more than 3 years.
That is going into my collection. Thanks.
 
This is a monumental point that you brought up, Eric. The early scriptures were not written in the later translation of Greek, so this would account for a discrepancy in dates, while still being true.

It also depends on which clock the writer is
Does that include the discrepancy about Quirinius?
 
Just to elaborate on what I was talking about a few days ago:

I find really ironic that modern Western thinking is based on Greco-Roman philosophies like that of Plato or Aristotle (with influence of ‘Enlightenment’-era Rationalism sprinkled in), but the most influential text in Western culture was mostly written by authors who were part of a different culture altogether.

Our modern definition of ‘history’ is really shaped by Greek authors like Herodotus or Thucydides. Add to that the demands of early modern philosophies like rationalism or empiricism that only reason or experience and evidence can tell you what is ‘true’: one needed to have clear, tangible evidence for everything - that so-and-so existed or that so-and-so happened. (Which you might argue was also a definition that came from Greek philosophy: the distinction between mythos, stories handed down from ages past that explain why the world is this or that, and ‘truth’ revealed by evidence - hence istoria ‘inquiry’ - and reason.) Isn’t it odd that we are actually imposing a definition of what ‘history’ is (and even that term: istoria) onto other, non-Western cultures who do not necessarily have the same worldview as the ancient Greeks did (I would include here the Israelite-Jewish culture)?

I like studying various religions: South Asian ones (like Hinduism or Buddhism) in particular. I remember back in the 18th-19th century when Western scholars would lambast Indians for not having a ‘history’, in the Western sense. (In fact, I think they were pretty much biased against anything that was not European or American. :p)

They look at the epics like Ramayana or the Mahabharata (defined in Hinduism as itihasa: ‘thus-it-happened’) or even the puranas (‘ancient’ - in other words, ‘of things long ago’), and they see all these gods and flesh-eating demons and other supernatural creatures walking alongside human beings. They notice that all these writings could conflict with each other and even themselves (they could give oftentimes wildly different versions of the same story, sometimes even within the same work itself; some of the puranas lay claim to a sort of supremacy or a unique special status - to the point that a few of them could diss other puranas ;)). To them, the Hindus seemed to have always mixed up their human heroes with their gods. Even ‘historical’ elements like chronologies of kings and dynasties are mixed in with the fantastic and the supernatural - what they dismissed as ‘myth’.

So these Western scholars who imposed the European definition of what ‘history’ is concluded that Indians are a backward, superstitious people who only believed in made-up fables or distorted/corrupted memories and not in scientifically-or-historically verifiable evidence or ‘fact’. And I think this is really the problem with their approach: they have forced a particular definition of something onto a culture who does not see things the same way they do.

(As an interesting aside: some modern Hindus, in attempting to stand up to the West, have gone the way of the Christian fundamentalist and in so doing, unwittingly embraced the Western concept of scientific method and ‘fact’ / ‘history’ / ‘truth’: for them, Hinduism can only be proved right if archaeological ‘discoveries’ that supposedly prove that the events reported in Hindu stories were ‘factual’ and thus ‘true’ - there’s that problematic conflation again - are found, and so every now and then somebody comes up and claim to have found, say, Krishna’s capital or material evidence for the ‘historical’ existence of Rama. Here’s a Hindu writer expressing his criticism of this tendency in modern India.)

It was not just Hinduism or these other non-Western cultures and religions that were the victims of this Europeo-centric thinking: as we can all probably agree, Judaeo-Christianity is, too. Only people don’t notice it as much because Christianity after all those years had become a fixture of Western culture. But I’ll argue: the damage on our side is probably greater, precisely because Christianity had become a fixture of Western culture.

The stories of the Bible were treated as sheer fiction concocted by a superstitious people because they don’t quite match up to the Greek-early modern definition of ‘history’; believers on their part, like modern Hindus, embraced this Europeo-centric worldview and made repeated attempts to find material evidence for the biblical accounts, some of which were successful, and others are just … well, not. (cf. the infamous Ron Wyatt)

That’s why I’m turning the question on its head: why are we all acting like the standard modern Western definition of ‘history’ or ‘fact’ or ‘truth’ as if it’s well, the undisputed truth of the universe, and why do we keep insisting on applying it onto contexts where it didn’t (originally) apply?
 
Does that include the discrepancy about Quirinius?
BTW, Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata also identified the first census of Augustus as the year our Lord was born.

“And our Lord was born in the twenty-eighth year, when first the census was ordered to be taken in the reign of Augustus.”

I see you have not provided a response or a critique of my writeup. Do you agree or disagree the so-call discrepancy is explainable?

Or are you trying to garner support that the Bible could be in error? :confused: You asked about the Quirinius question 4 times and I thought you might be genuinely interested in a plausible answer. I might have guessed wrong.
 
Does that include the discrepancy about Quirinius?
Quirinius isn’t a discrepancy, as I noted previously. It’s a call back both to David’s census and a callback to the Flood, it’s in Luke’s Gospel to show that the world was figuratively dead before the birth of Christ, for the reasons previously stated.

If you don’t want to accept that there is figurative language in The Bible I don’t know what to tell you except that there is, indeed, figurative language in The Bible. Speaking of figurative language, I’m not much for beating dead horses more than twice, so I’m out of this thread. 🤷
 
P.S. It’s rather telling that the word ‘history’ comes from the Greek istoria ‘inquiry’ - knowledge acquired by investigation and research.

But when you go to other cultures, their words for (their concept of) ‘history’ isn’t the same. In Chinese for example, the character for ‘history’ is 史. It could either be a combination of 中 (‘middle’, ‘inside’) and 手/又 (‘hand’), or it’s a pictograph of a hand holding a sort of writing implement (either a brush or a bamboo slip?) In other words, it represented someone who wrote something: a piece of writing, a record, a chronicle.


In fact, the character 史 is related to 事 ‘business’, ‘matter’, ‘thing’, ‘event’ (i.e. someone who gives out a piece of writing, or a matter or an event which is written down) and 吏/使 ‘government official, magistrate’ / ‘messenger, envoy’ (i.e. someone who carries or delivers the piece of writing, or someone writing what was said from the mouth).

It’s said that the original meaning of 史 was ‘scribe’ or ‘chronicler’, i.e, someone (吏) who recorded events and matters (事). It eventually came to mean the chronicle itself due to the influence of Sima Qian’s chronicles (145/135-86 BC). The term 歷史 (currently used today to mean ‘history’) is a combination of 史 and 歷 ‘to experience’: in other words, a ‘chronicle of experiences’. (Note in East Asia, much of what was called ‘history’ is actually closer to ‘propaganda’: they are chronicles which are designed to confer and uphold a ruler’s legitimacy and right to rule. Note that East Asian historians were also not above “fictionalising” or using what would be classified in the West as ‘myths’ in their records.)

Sanskrit, as mentioned, has itihāsa (iti + ha + asa “so indeed it was”). The ancient Indians applied the term to narrated events which were about the past, with no care whether it was - from the Western perspective - ‘history’ or ‘myth’. There is also purāṇa (‘ancient’), which was basically anything that was ‘old’: stories of ‘the old days’ - again, with no clear distinction from the Western POV between ‘history’ and ‘myth’ - dogmas, rituals, moral codes. In other words, a sort of encyclopedia of ‘ancient’ lore and belief.

In fact, I just noticed that in a number of cultures, their word for ‘history’ is either the same word as ‘story’ or ‘tale’ or even ‘conversation’ or ‘anecdote’ (for example, the Old Norse word saga - which survives today in Icelandic; the Tagalog word kasaysayan, which comes from the verb saysayin ‘to tell’, ‘to relate’; Ilocano pakasaritaan, from sarita ‘tale’, ‘story’, ‘conversation’, cf. Tagalog salita ‘word’ - both ultimately come from Sanskrit cārita ‘career’, ‘deed’, ‘act’ via Old Malay cerita ‘tale’, ‘story’) or the word for ‘past’. (Estonian has sort of both: ajalugu, from aeg ‘time’ + lugu ‘story’.)

In other words, these cultures really don’t/didn’t share the scientific precision that the Greeks had (istoria = the result of investigating, researching, comparing organizing information about past events): ‘history’ was more like stories of the past per se, usually ones that was handed down from their ancestors. In that sense, it is actually closer to the original meaning of another Greek word: mythos. (It’s telling that many languages simply adopted the word historia into their own languages than give a native equivalent.)
 
This is not so. That is not the proper sense of innerancy.
The Magisterium has condemned the opinion that inerrancy only extends to matters of faith or morals:

Pope Pius XII: “they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters.” (Humani Generis, n. 22).

The Magisterium has specifically taught that inerrancy does extend to matters of physical science and history.

Pope Pius XII: “The sacred Council of Trent ordained by solemn decree that ‘the entire books with all their parts, as they have been wont to be read in the Catholic Church and are contained in the old vulgate Latin edition, are to be held sacred and canonical.’ In our own time the Vatican Council, with the object of condemning false doctrines regarding inspiration, declared that these same books were to be regarded by the Church as sacred and canonical ‘not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God for their author, and as such were handed down to the Church herself.’ When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the ‘entire books with all their parts’ as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as ‘obiter dicta’ and – as they contended – in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules.” (Divino Afflante Spiritu, n. 1).
 
You seem to be claiming that inerrancy requires a belief in the literalist historic and scientific accuracy of the bible. Is that correct?
Of course, we are required to believe the historical value of the bible. For instance:
Jesus Christ was born, lived, died, and rose in the fullness of time. He is part of history.

That is not the same thing as requiring belief in scientific and historic factual details, like which exact day and time the crucifixion took place (cause the Gospel accounts vary in details).

Are you claiming the bible is historically and scientifically factual?
The Magisterium has condemned the opinion that inerrancy only extends to matters of faith or morals:

Pope Pius XII: “they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters.” (Humani Generis, n. 22).

The Magisterium has specifically taught that inerrancy does extend to matters of physical science and history.

Pope Pius XII: “The sacred Council of Trent ordained by solemn decree that ‘the entire books with all their parts, as they have been wont to be read in the Catholic Church and are contained in the old vulgate Latin edition, are to be held sacred and canonical.’ In our own time the Vatican Council, with the object of condemning false doctrines regarding inspiration, declared that these same books were to be regarded by the Church as sacred and canonical ‘not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God for their author, and as such were handed down to the Church herself.’ When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the ‘entire books with all their parts’ as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as ‘obiter dicta’ and – as they contended – in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules.” (Divino Afflante Spiritu, n. 1).
 
I think the section in Humani Generis is worth quoting in full.
  1. To return, however, to the new opinions mentioned above, a number of things are proposed or suggested by some even against the divine authorship of Sacred Scripture. For some go so far as to pervert the sense of the Vatican Council’s definition that God is the author of Holy Scripture, and they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters. They even wrongly speak of a human sense of the Scriptures, beneath which a divine sense, which they say is the only infallible meaning, lies hidden. In interpreting Scripture, they will take no account of the analogy of faith and the Tradition of the Church. Thus they judge the doctrine of the Fathers and of the Teaching Church by the norm of Holy Scripture, interpreted by the purely human reason of exegetes, instead of explaining Holy Scripture according to the mind of the Church which Christ Our Lord has appointed guardian and interpreter of the whole deposit of divinely revealed truth.
  2. Further, according to their fictitious opinions, the literal sense of Holy Scripture and its explanation, carefully worked out under the Church’s vigilance by so many great exegetes, should yield now to a new exegesis, which they are pleased to call symbolic or spiritual. By means of this new exegesis of the Old Testament, which today in the Church is a sealed book, would finally be thrown open to all the faithful. By this method, they say, all difficulties vanish, difficulties which hinder only those who adhere to the literal meaning of the Scriptures.
  3. Everyone sees how foreign all this is to the principles and norms of interpretation rightly fixed by our predecessors of happy memory, Leo XIII in his Encyclical “Providentissimus Deus,” and Benedict XV in the Encyclical “Spiritus Paraclitus,” as also by Ourselves in the Encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu.”
And this is what Leo XIII concluded in Providentissimus Deus:
In order that all these endeavours and exertions may really prove advantageous to the cause of the Bible, let scholars keep steadfastly to the principles which We have in this Letter laid down. Let them loyally hold that God, the Creator and Ruler of all things, is also the Author of the Scriptures - and that therefore nothing can be proved either by physical science or archaeology which can really contradict the Scriptures. If, then, apparent contradiction be met with, every effort should be made to remove it. Judicious theologians and commentators should be consulted as to what is the true or most probable meaning of the passage in discussion, and the hostile arguments should be carefully weighed. Even if the difficulty is after all not cleared up and the discrepancy seems to remain, the contest must not be abandoned; truth cannot contradict truth, and we may be sure that some mistake has been made either in the interpretation of the sacred words, or in the polemical discussion itself; and if no such mistake can be detected, we must then suspend judgment for the time being. There have been objections without number perseveringly directed against the Scripture for many a long year, which have been proved to be futile and are now never heard of; and not unfrequently interpretations have been placed on certain passages of Scripture (not belonging to the rule of faith or morals) which have been rectified by more careful investigations. As time goes on, mistaken views die and disappear; but “truth remaineth and groweth stronger for ever and ever.” Wherefore, as no one should be so presumptuous as to think that he understands the whole of the Scripture, in which St. Augustine himself confessed that there was more that he did not know, than that he knew, so, if he should come upon anything that seems incapable of solution, he must take to heart the cautious rule of the same holy Doctor: "It is better even to be oppressed by unknown but useful signs, than to interpret them uselessly and thus to throw off the yoke only to be caught in the trap of error. "

And here’s Spiritus Paraclitus.
 
As an aside, John Paul II said this:

The strict relationship uniting the inspired biblical texts with the mystery of the Incarnation was expressed by the Encyclical Divino afflante Spiritu in the following terms: “Just as the substantial Word of God became like men in every respect except sin, so too the words of God, expressed in human languages, became like human language in every respect except error” (EB, 559). Repeated almost literally by the conciliar Constitution Dei Verbum (13), this statement sheds light on a parallelism rich in meaning.

It is true that putting God’s words into writing, through the charism of scriptural inspiration, was the first step toward the incarnation of the Word of God. These written words, in fact, were an abiding means of communication and communion between the chosen people and their one Lord. On the other hand, it is because of the prophetic aspect of these words that it was possible to recognize the fulfillment of God’s plan when “the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (see John 1:14).

After the heavenly glorification of the humanity of the Word made flesh, it is again due to written words that his stay among us is attested to in an abiding way. Joined to the inspired writings of the first covenant, the inspired writings of the new covenant are a verifiable means of communication and communion between the believing people and God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This means certainly can never be separated from the stream of spiritual life that flows from the heart of Jesus crucified and which spreads through the Church’s sacraments. It has nevertheless its own consistency precisely as a written text which verifies it.
  1. Consequently, the two encyclicals require that Catholic exegetes remain in full harmony with the mystery of the Incarnation, a mystery of the union of the divine and the human in a determinate historical life. The earthly life of Jesus is not defined only by the places and dates at the beginning of the 1st century in Judea and Galilee, but also by his deep roots in the long history of a small nation of the ancient Near East, with its weaknesses and its greatness, with its men of God and its sinners, with its slow cultural evolution and its political misadventures, with its defeats and its victories, with its longing for peace and the kingdom of God.
And here I think is a key part of the speech:

Divino Afflante Spiritu, we know, particularly recommended that exegetes study the literary genres used in the Sacred Books, going so far as to say that Catholic exegesis must “be convinced that this part of its task cannot be neglected without serious harm to Catholic exegesis” (EB, n. 560). This recommendation starts from the concern to understand the meaning of the texts with all the accuracy and precision possible and, thus, in their historical, cultural context.

A false idea of God and the incarnation presses a certain number of Christians to take the opposite approach. They tend to believe that, since God is the absolute Being, each of his words has an absolute value, independent of all the conditions of human language. Thus, according to them, there is no room for studying these conditions in order to make distinctions that would relativize the significance of the words. However, that is where the illusion occurs and the mysteries of scriptural inspiration and the incarnation are really rejected, by clinging to a false notion of the Absolute.

The God of the Bible is not an absolute Being who, crushing everything he touches, would suppress all differences and all nuances. On the contrary, he is God the Creator, who created the astonishing variety of beings “each according to its kind,” as the Genesis account says repeatedly (see Genesis 1). Far from destroying differences, God respects them and makes use of them (See 1 Corinthians 12:18, 24, 28). Although he expresses himself in human language, he does not give each expression a uniform value, but uses its possible nuances with extreme flexibility and likewise accepts its limitations.

That is what makes the task of exegetes so complex, so necessary and so fascinating! None of the human aspects of language can be neglected. The recent progress in linguistic, literary and hermeneutical research have led biblical exegesis to add many other points of view (rhetorical, narrative, structuralist) to the study of literary genres; other human sciences, such as psychology and sociology, have likewise been employed. To all this one can apply the charge which Leo XIII gave the members of the Biblical Commission: “Let them consider nothing that the diligent research of modern scholars will have newly found as foreign to their realm; quite the contrary, let them be alert to adopt without delay anything useful that each period brings to biblical exegesis” (Vigilantiae: EB n. 140). Studying the human circumstances of the word of God should be pursued with ever renewed interest.
  1. Nevertheless, this study is not enough. In order to respect the coherence of the Church’s faith and of scriptural inspiration, Catholic exegesis must be careful not to limit itself to the human aspects of the biblical texts. First and foremost, it must help the Christian people more dearly perceive the word of God in these texts so that they can better accept them in order to live in full communion with God. To this end it is obviously necessary that the exegete himself perceive the divine word in the texts. He can do this only if his intellectual work is sustained by a vigorous spiritual life.
 
Thanks Patrick.

It seems that most of the strife over biblical interpretation revolves around a literalist fundamentalist misunderstanding of inspiration and inerrancy. A fundamentalist interpretation of scripture does not allow Christ to live and breathe in the scriptures. It does not allow Inspiration to work. It constricts the word to my understanding, in my context, according to modes of expression understood in my time, in my language.
Paradoxically, literalism “fails to respect the authenticity of the sacred text”, according to Pope Benedict:
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini.html#The_Interpretation_Of_Sacred_Scripture__In_The_Church
The fundamentalist interpretation of sacred Scripture
  1. The attention we have been paying to different aspects of the theme of biblical hermeneutics now enables us to consider a subject which came up a number of times during the Synod: that of the fundamentalist interpretation of sacred Scripture.[145] The Pontifical Biblical Commission, in its document The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, has laid down some important guidelines. Here I would like especially to deal with approaches which fail to respect the authenticity of the sacred text, but promote subjective and arbitrary interpretations. The “literalism” championed by the fundamentalist approach actually represents a betrayal of both the literal and the spiritual sense, and opens the way to various forms of manipulation, as, for example, by disseminating anti-ecclesial interpretations of the Scriptures. “The basic problem with fundamentalist interpretation is that, refusing to take into account the historical character of biblical revelation, it makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the incarnation itself. As regards relationships with God, fundamentalism seeks to escape any closeness of the divine and the human … for this reason, it tends to treat the biblical text as if it had been dictated word for word by the Spirit. It fails to recognize that the word of God has been formulated in language and expression conditioned by various periods”.[146] Christianity, on the other hand, perceives in the words the Word himself, the Logos who displays his mystery through this complexity and the reality of human history.[147] The true response to a fundamentalist approach is “the faith-filled interpretation of sacred Scripture”. This manner of interpretation, “practised from antiquity within the Church’s Tradition, seeks saving truth for the life of the individual Christian and for the Church. It recognizes the historical value of the biblical tradition. Precisely because of the tradition’s value as an historical witness, this reading seeks to discover the living meaning of the sacred Scriptures for the lives of believers today”,[148] while not ignoring the human mediation of the inspired text and its literary genres.
 
P.S. It’s rather telling that the word ‘history’ comes from the Greek istoria ‘inquiry’ - knowledge acquired by investigation and research.

But when you go to other cultures, their words for (their concept of) ‘history’ isn’t the same. In Chinese for example, the character for ‘history’ is 史. It could either be a combination of 中 (‘middle’, ‘inside’) and 手/又 (‘hand’), or it’s a pictograph of a hand holding a sort of writing implement (either a brush or a bamboo slip?) In other words, it represented someone who wrote something: a piece of writing, a record, a chronicle.

Chinese Etymology 字源

In fact, the character 史 is related to 事 ‘business’, ‘matter’, ‘thing’, ‘event’ (i.e. someone who gives out a piece of writing, or a matter or an event which is written down) and 吏/使 ‘government official, magistrate’ / ‘messenger, envoy’ (i.e. someone who carries or delivers the piece of writing, or someone writing what was said from the mouth).

It’s said that the original meaning of 史 was ‘scribe’ or ‘chronicler’, i.e, someone (吏) who recorded events and matters (事). It eventually came to mean the chronicle itself due to the influence of Sima Qian’s chronicles (145/135-86 BC). The term 歷史 (currently used today to mean ‘history’) is a combination of 史 and 歷 ‘to experience’: in other words, a ‘chronicle of experiences’. (Note in East Asia, much of what was called ‘history’ is actually closer to ‘propaganda’: they are chronicles which are designed to confer and uphold a ruler’s legitimacy and right to rule. Note that East Asian historians were also not above “fictionalising” or using what would be classified in the West as ‘myths’ in their records.)

Sanskrit, as mentioned, has itihāsa (iti + ha + asa “so indeed it was”). The ancient Indians applied the term to narrated events which were about the past, with no care whether it was - from the Western perspective - ‘history’ or ‘myth’. There is also purāṇa (‘ancient’), which was basically anything that was ‘old’: stories of ‘the old days’ - again, with no clear distinction from the Western POV between ‘history’ and ‘myth’ - dogmas, rituals, moral codes. In other words, a sort of encyclopedia of ‘ancient’ lore and belief.

In fact, I just noticed that in a number of cultures, their word for ‘history’ is either the same word as ‘story’ or ‘tale’ or even ‘conversation’ or ‘anecdote’ (for example, the Old Norse word saga - which survives today in Icelandic; the Tagalog word kasaysayan, which comes from the verb saysayin ‘to tell’, ‘to relate’; Ilocano pakasaritaan, from sarita ‘tale’, ‘story’, ‘conversation’, cf. Tagalog salita ‘word’ - both ultimately come from Sanskrit cārita ‘career’, ‘deed’, ‘act’ via Old Malay cerita ‘tale’, ‘story’) or the word for ‘past’. (Estonian has sort of both: ajalugu, from aeg ‘time’ + lugu ‘story’.)

In other words, these cultures really don’t/didn’t share the scientific precision that the Greeks had (istoria = the result of investigating, researching, comparing organizing information about past events): ‘history’ was more like stories of the past per se, usually ones that was handed down from their ancestors. In that sense, it is actually closer to the original meaning of another Greek word: mythos. (It’s telling that many languages simply adopted the word historia into their own languages than give a native equivalent.)
Good post as usual.

I always think of the word “history” as “his story”. The story changes whoever tells it, what nation tells it, what context it is in. A Russian child who learns the history of the world according to his nation it will be very different than what an American learns in school. There a multitude of agendas which influence how the history is told.

The further you get from the eyewitness account the less reliable history is. But even in the case of eyewitnesses, rarely do their stories completely jive with one another.

Once history is in an inalterable state, such as the Bible, it is up for endless interpretations.

But the Bible is a great history, actually many stories from many times and many men, all seeking to tell the story of man and his relationship to God.
 
To actually answer this thread’s question, no, I think the Scriptures cannot be in error - they can only be misinterpreted. As for the conflicting passages:

Some passages can actually be harmonized with each other, and thus, are not really in conflict. It’s pretty much the easy way, but not the only way.

In passages where simple harmonization does not work (and yes, there are passages where simple harmonization or conflation won’t do - IMHO one is better off not to overuse the tactic, as some interpreters have done), I think an approach is, just like the popes mention, to take the historical, cultural and the linguistic contexts of the book in question. (And one should also take into consideration that something always gets lost in translation and in the transmission of the biblical text: that’s why textual criticism is also important.)

As I’m personally arguing for, it’d probably be better too if one also holds open the possibility that our modern definition of what ‘history’ and what ‘truth’ is and should be may not be in sync with that held by the sacred writers: do not assume that the biblical writers were modern-day Europeans/Americans who subscribe to the Western concept of things like rationalism or empiricism or ‘scientific method’. As mentioned, they’re not just dry chroniclers; they’re also storytellers.

The thing is that while some read Dei Verbum as supporting the idea of ‘limited inerrancy’, it doesn’t really read that way. Dei Verbum says that the Scriptures “must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” Yes, to be honest, it does sound rather ambiguous, but even as it is the phrase “for the sake of salvation” still doesn’t mean that the Scriptures are inerrant ‘only in matters of faith or morals’, as some people seem to like it to read.

The biblical books do at times make historical or scientific assertions - these assertions would also be inerrant. In this regard I agree with Ron. But the thing is, just the fact that the Scriptures do make historical or scientific assertions in some passages still doesn’t make them ‘historical’ or ‘scientific’ books in the modern Western/Greco-Roman sense. I think this is where many people get tripped up: they assume that just because there are inerrant historical truths in the Bible it means that the Bible is completely a literal ‘history’ or ‘science’ book in the modern Western sense. (For example, the authors of the OT may have presupposed the idea - common in ancient cultures - that the sun revolved around the earth, but in no biblical passage is this asserted to be the supreme truth of the universe; in other words, there are no passages that condemn heliocentrism or assert geocentrism to be an inspired truth, so I don’t think geocentrism is really endorsed by the Bible or that the passages which sort of presuppose it are in the ‘inerrant’ category, as some literalists seem to make it out to be.)

Matthew says in his gospel: “Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king.” That’s an historical assertion. And you might notice, even with the census of Quirinius thing complicating the matter a little bit and even with the variance in the two accounts Luke still agrees with Matthew in asserting that Jesus was born in Herod the Great’s reign, He was born in Bethlehem, and His parents were named Joseph and Mary. Personally I think that these elements would count as inerrant historical assertions. It’s right up there with Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and was raised up/rose again on the third day.

Going back to my example of the story of the paralytic, that there was a paralytic who was healed by Jesus would IMHO count as an historical assertion - and thus an inerrant truth. But the roofing material of the house where the healing took place would not really count as an historical assertion; it’s just an interesting, but ultimately expendable minor detail. Note that in Matthew’s version of the story, he doesn’t even mention the roof or even the house: the people simply bring the paralytic to Jesus. So the fact that Mark presupposes a flat mud roof and Luke mentions a tiled roof does not mean that there is an ‘error’ in the gospels that threaten to undermine divine inspiration.

Literalism and fundamentalism on the one hand, and extreme skepticism on the other is not the way to go. (I actually find it very interesting that both views are based on the premise that the modern Western worldview - sorry if I sound like I’m lambasting Western thinking too much here 😊 - is gospel truth: one side attacks the Bible for failing to hold up to modern ‘scientific’ and ‘historical’ standards, and the other side desperately tries to make the Bible hold up to modern ‘scientific’ and ‘historical’ standards - not always with the best of results.)
 
This argument always amuses me. We nit pic on this or that totally unimportant fact. It is like hiking in the beautiful mountains of Colorado and complaining if we step in a bog and get our feet muddy.

The Bible is rich and full of so much that is true about the history of mankind. The Bible is rich and full of the truth about God and faith. The Bible has more historical truth about people -how they lived and thought and prayed - in it than any other ancient book we know about. Historians used the Bible extensively in searching for ancient civilizations.

Yet we sit back and pick at and quibble about whether or not a certain leader was a leader at a certain time.

It is has if someone wrote a paper about the Apaches who lived shortly after the civil war and got President Grant mixed up with President Hayes.

Sure there are historical errors (minor) and there are different customs used by the ancient Jews that do not apply but… my goodness, look at what we have and what the Bible has contributed to the study of history. It is a magnificent book whether a person accepts it as the God’s Word (as I do) or does not accept as God’s Word.
 
To actually answer this thread’s question, no, I think the Scriptures cannot be in error - they can only be misinterpreted. As for the conflicting passages:
It depends on what the questioner means by “error”. If by that question is meant the literal placement of a dome over the earth, then the answer must be “yes, the bible has errors”.

If by “error” the questioner believes those items dissolve the inspired and inerrant nature of the bible so as to dilute the purposes of God, then no, the scriptures cannot have errors.* The scriptures accomplish every purpose of God, without error.* Even those dark passages which propose practices which are abhorrent to Christian beliefs accomplish the will of God without error.

In my mind, it almost blasphemy to require of God that he spoon feed us his word in terms and methods our own puny minds can easily organize and comprehend. Who are we to require modern logical streams of thought for his own self communication? We are human beings, God is God. The scriptures express what God wills, in human words. So, scripture is very messy. Why would God allow that??? Ultimately scripture leads us to discover a person, a relationship with Jesus Christ, that brings life to these mysteries.

A spoon feeding would make it easy. In fact, a spoon feeding of God’s revelation makes Jesus Christ unnecessary. It makes it easy for someone to reject the word of God when it can be pointed out the different times of the crucifixion between the Gospels, or the assertion of a dome that does not exist, scientific and historical items we know are not factual. It also makes it easy to delve no further that the literal , and so rob the scriptures of saving power.

We accuse God: “There are discrepancies God! Where is your inspiration, where is your truth?”

It is interesting that both atheists and fundamentalists view the bible in the same way.
 
We accuse God: “There are discrepancies God! Where is your inspiration, where is your truth?”

It is interesting that both atheists and fundamentalists view the bible in the same way.
Very true!🙂
 
Yes absolutely, and with a name like yours, you need to remember than men are not perfect, they do make errors, but the Bible was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Don’t dwell on the small errors - see the big beautiful picture. Jesus Christ was the son of God and he has given his life for the redemption of the whole world. His disciples believed in him and spread his message to every corner of the earth. So if there are a few errors in the Bible, let them be. Don’t let them destroy your faith. :
Thanks.
 
Historical errors, errors of recollection, translation errors, errors made by scribes, etc. However, you are right, none of those errors changes the fact that Jesus was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. In matters of faith, the Bible is inerrant.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I feel better now.
 
Yes absolutely, and with a name like yours, you need to remember than men are not perfect, they do make errors, but the Bible was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Don’t dwell on the small errors - see the big beautiful picture. Jesus Christ was the son of God and he has given his life for the redemption of the whole world. His disciples believed in him and spread his message to every corner of the earth. So if there are a few errors in the Bible, let them be. Don’t let them destroy your faith. :
Thanks!
 
Historical errors, errors of recollection, translation errors, errors made by scribes, etc. However, you are right, none of those errors changes the fact that Jesus was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. In matters of faith, the Bible is inerrant.
There is an element of “story” in ancient culture. Others more educated than I will have to elaborate on this mode of expression used in ancient cultures. Suffice it to say that God can use any human being, in any words, in any degree of factuality, to accomplish his will in an inerrant fashion.

Best example is parables, which were never intended to be factual but are sharper than any two edged sword. (Was the Prodigal Son a newspaper account of factual events?)

Oddly enough, parables have the element of literal history. They were written down in time. The literal sense is the most basic sense, and it starts with the affirmation that the bible is an authentic work of literature that is inerrant and inspired.

This is not necessarily the same thing as factual
 
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