Can the Church change its teaching?

[una_fides]

Fear is what keeps me going to the Sacrements. I don’t go to Church or confession because it’s fun. We can trust in the Lord all we want but if we end up in hell all of that trust doesn’t matter at all.

Why do you insist that you are going to end up in hell? It’s not God’s will. He wants you to be saved! So much so that he became man and died a most agonizing and humiliating death to make that happen. So much so that he represents that same sacrifice in an unbloody way upon the altars at Mass and again humbles himself to become our food in order to commune with us! The remedy for you is to not look at God as the angry judge, but look at him as the loving savior that has given everything for you and gave you life and everything you have and asks that you give him yourself in return.

 

[una_fides]

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure this is not what the Church teaches. It teaches to use the tools and hopefully you will make it to Heaven. In addition, I think it might be easier than you think to be in mortal sin and not know it, at least clearly. What I mean to say is that it is human nature to rationalize why something may or may not be a mortal sin. If you rationalize wrong, you are still guilty of the sin. No? I mean, you could die and God could say you didn’t give enough money to the Church and so off to hell with you. Now, you might have rationalized that you gave enough, but…

Ed, I think we are nearing a breakthrough. Not giving a certain amount of money to the Church is not a mortal sin and could not keep you out of heaven. The three conditions for mortal sin are 1) Grave Matter, 2) Full Knowledge, 3) Deliberate Consent. If any of those three are not present, you do not have a mortal sin. In your example, since not giving a certain amount of money to the Church is not a grave matter, then you do not have a mortal sin. Also to help you along the process, practice making acts of perfect contrition for your sins, which means you are sorry not because you fear hell but because you have offended God and his perfect goodness.
Here is a site that will help to understand more on what constitutes a mortal sin: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Why do you insist that you are going to end up in hell? It’s not God’s will. He wants you to be saved! So much so that he became man and died a most agonizing and humiliating death to make that happen. So much so that he represents that same sacrifice in an unbloody way upon the altars at Mass and again humbles himself to become our food in order to commune with us! The remedy for you is to not look at God as the angry judge, but look at him as the loving savior that has given everything for you and gave you life and everything you have and asks that you give him yourself in return.

I don’t insist I’m going to hell. I’m saying that there is a good chance that each of us might regardless of how hard we try. Any one of us could fall into mortal sin at any time because we are weak by nature. If we die prior to confession, we’re doomed, or so says the Church.

It’s funny because I don’t look at God as an angry judge. I pray and am often conforted by thinking about and talking to God. But the Church, that’s an entirely different thing. I get no comfort from the Church. To me, the Church is a very scary thing. Do what I say, exactly how I say, on exactly the day I say or else. Any by the way, ignorance won’t save you (unless it’s defined as invinciple ignorance with a very nuanced definition).

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Ed, I think we are nearing a breakthrough. Not giving a certain amount of money to the Church is not a mortal sin and could not keep you out of heaven. The three conditions for mortal sin are 1) Grave Matter, 2) Full Knowledge, 3) Deliberate Consent. If any of those three are not present, you do not have a mortal sin. In your example, since not giving a certain amount of money to the Church is not a grave matter, then you do not have a mortal sin. Also to help you along the process, practice making acts of perfect contrition for your sins, which means you are sorry not because you fear hell but because you have offended God and his perfect goodness.
Here is a site that will help to understand more on what constitutes a mortal sin: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

So, one can not give anythign to the Church and it’s not a grave matter? One can never pray and it’s not a grave matter?

I know what constitues a mortal sin. I also know that most will not make it to Heaven, some because they died as infants and didn’t get baptized. If one can be left out of Heaven for not doing something completely out of their control than how probable must it be to end up in hell because of something we did even while trying to do our best? I do try and make perfect acts of contrition. But, of course, we never know if they are real and for that reason should never count on them. But we can hope. One begins to wonder what the point is.

 

[una_fides]

So, one can not give anythign to the Church and it’s not a grave matter? One can never pray and it’s not a grave matter?

I know what constitues a mortal sin. I also know that most will not make it to Heaven, some because they died as infants and didn’t get baptized. If one can be left out of Heaven for not doing something completely out of their control than how probable must it be to end up in hell because of something we did even while trying to do our best? I do try and make perfect acts of contrition. But, of course, we never know if they are real and for that reason should never count on them. But we can hope. One begins to wonder what the point is.

The point is heaven. Sounds like you are undergoing a time of spiritual darkness. Many of the saints went through periods of darkness in their lives. You will emerge more strong and holier once you’ve made it through. Above all keep praying, keep receiving the sacraments frequently, and no matter what, never, never, never, never, quit! You will make it. God’s on your side, and please remember that God is acting through and is always guiding his Church.

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

The point is heaven. Sounds like you are undergoing a time of spiritual darkness. Many of the saints went through periods of darkness in their lives. You will emerge more strong and holier once you’ve made it through. Above all keep praying, keep receiving the sacraments frequently, and no matter what, never, never, never, never, quit! You will make it. God’s on your side, and please remember that God is acting through and is always guiding his Church.

Spiritual darkness is right. That’s a good way of describing it. Hopefully I will make it out before I die and end up in hell. It seems some get the time to work things out and some don’t. Luck of the draw I guess.

 

[ron77nyc]

I don’t insist I’m going to hell. I’m saying that there is a good chance that each of us might regardless of how hard we try. Any one of us could fall into mortal sin at any time because we are weak by nature. If we die prior to confession, we’re doomed, or so says the Church.

Those of us who were raised Catholic were taught as you say. We were led to believe that we could lose our salvation easily and God was just waiting for us to do something. They didn’t want us to be too sure but they are sure when they want to make a new saint— double standard. How do they know when someone passes God’s judgement and goes to heaven? Anyway, God’s mercy is not that fragile. He’s very persistent and He won’t let you slip away by accident. God also is present in the sacraments but He is not confined to them. “God is not bound by His sacraments.” That’s a Catholic teaching.

 

[surritter]

What eventually happens is not the most important thing?

Our eternal destiny is indeed the most important thing. Perhaps I misunderstood your post:

“In the end, how much one hopes really means nothing. It’s what eventually happens.”

 

[una_fides]

Spiritual darkness is right. That’s a good way of describing it. Hopefully I will make it out before I die and end up in hell. It seems some get the time to work things out and some don’t. Luck of the draw I guess.

If you keep receiving the sacraments faithfully and frequently and keep praying, I believe you will be saved. Have faith! God is more powerful than your sins!

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Our eternal destiny is indeed the most important thing. Perhaps I misunderstood your post:

“In the end, how much one hopes really means nothing. It’s what eventually happens.”

What I meant to say is that one can hope all day long every day for an entire lifetime and it means nothing if we end up in hell. It’s where we end up that matters.

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

If you keep receiving the sacraments faithfully and frequently and keep praying, I believe you will be saved. Have faith! God is more powerful than your sins!

I hope you are right. But I will say that my Faith is being tested. I’m not sure I have it any more.

 

[una_fides]

I hope you are right. But I will say that my Faith is being tested. I’m not sure I have it any more.

If you loose faith, you loose hope because hope is faith directed to the future. If you raise your doubts on here specifically by starting up threads on the topic(s), I’m sure you will find some answers. Just continue praying and humbly begging God for light from heaven. He will direct you.

 

[surritter]

What I meant to say is that one can hope all day long every day for an entire lifetime and it means nothing if we end up in hell. It’s where we end up that matters.

OK – I see now. I would say that hope in itself does nothing directly to get you to heaven. But it is provides the strength to persevere in the things that do get us to heaven. And those things are certainly attainable.

Remember, no one goes to hell by accident. They have to want it: perhaps not directly wanting hell itself, but they want the qualities of hell such as selfishness, pride, and a refusal to submit to God.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church has infallibly defined the following:
Pope Gregory X, *Council of Lyons II, *1274: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 464)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 693)
There can be no question that infants that die in a state of original sin only will go to hell. St. Thomas Aquinas understood there to be varying degrees of hell and the highest level was for those of infants that died without baptism. He concluded that because they did not have the capacity to attain the beatific vision that they would live there in perfect bliss unknowing of the loss of heaven and unharmed by the fires themselves. Such was then and still is a viable theological speculation. One which I personally still believe.

The Church recently put out a non-binding theological document discussing the teaching on infants the die without baptism. vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html The document repeatedly mentions that the reason the question was raised and discussed is that many people have worried about the states of their unbaptized children that have died, and the Church intentionally in order to placate them was seeking for another possible explanation. For 2000 years, the Church has approached divine revelation as trying to discover what has been revealed and accepting those teachings as being handed on and believed throughout the centuries. In this case, what I found particularly disturbing, was that this document instead openly states that its intention is to try to discern if other possibilities could exist in order to give consolation to the many people that worry about such.

Interestingly, this document traces the history of beliefs on the eternal destiny of these infants and in such demonstrates that the Church and Catholics never once believed or taught that infants that died without baptism could possibly be saved. In fact, the only ones, as the document records, that taught such as a possibility were heretics such as the Pelagians! This document in reaching its conclusion does not provide the heretical explanation as the Pelagians do, but it does reach the same sort of conclusion in a round about way. The document explains that there can be a possibility for the salvation of these infants basing itself on a Scripture verse that says that God wills for all men to be saved and therefore provides to each enough grace to be saved. In the case of these infants, it says, they did not have the possibility–overlooking the fact that someone could have baptized them–and it concludes therefore that ti could be possible that God could somehow apart from the sacrament cleanse them from original sin in a way completely unknown to us. God has not provided any revelation whatsoever regarding any other way to be saved than through baptism, yet the document concludes that it could be a possibility and therefore there can be hope. The document, however, does not come near to adequately addressing the verse in Scripture that states that unless someone is born “of water and of the Holy Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:3-7). Regardless, this document is not binding as to one having to believe that it’s possible for those infants to be saved apart from baptism. It’s pure theological speculation, as God has not given us revelation in this regard. Nevertheless, one must believe and agree with the infallible declaration I quoted above. The Church has never infallibly ruled to my knowledge that there is no other possible way to be cleansed from original sin apart from the sacrament of baptism (at least by desire or blood). The Church has, however, consistently taught apart from this sacrament there is no remedy but to my knowledge no infallible definition has been attached.

Hope this lengthy analysis helps. (I admit that I have not read through this thread so if any of this information has already been stated, I apologize for any redundancy.)

This is a good explanation of the traditional Latin Catholic church’s position on infant baptism.

Damnation of infants is the fallback position of the church, if one deletes Limbo from the teaching.

 

[surritter]

This is a good explanation of the traditional Latin Catholic church’s position on infant baptism.

Damnation of infants is the fallback position of the church, if one deletes Limbo from the teaching.

As explained before, however, this needs to be read very carefully. The pronouncements that are given say that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin or in a state of original sin are destined for hell.

Too many people on this thread equate that with “unbaptized babies are destined for hell.” The problem is that you are automatically saying that unbaptized babies who die MUST be in a state of original sin.

The Church does NOT definitively teach that! It does teach that unbaptized babies have original sin, but you are making a leap to say that at the instant of death, they still have that stain. While baptism is the normative way to erase original sin – and the only way that we know of to do that – you cannot say that God is prevented from exercising His own mysterious way of removing the original sin in the case of an unbaptized baby. It could be an extension of the idea of baptism by desire. The point is that we just don’t know for sure.

 

[Hesychios]

I hope you are right. But I will say that my Faith is being tested. I’m not sure I have it any more.

Actually, you are called upon to live out your Faith.

You are a work in progress, we all are.

It’s not just a matter of waiting around for the end, and hoping we don’t screw up. It’s not just a matter receiving the sacraments and believing in God (not that I think this is your position).

We are baptized into Christ, we put on Christ. We must live out this Faith, actively. We have heard the Gospel, we need to internalize the message.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."Matt 25:31-46

To anyone: Check out the Saint Vincent De Paul Society, and volunteer. If your parish doesn’t have a food pantry or soup kitchen, find one in the city that does and volunteer.

There are many ways to have a positive impact. You will not only be remembered fondly when your days have passed, but you will do yourself a whole bunch of good mentally and spiritually, and your good example may inspire others.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church does NOT definitively teach that! It does teach that unbaptized babies have original sin, but you are making a leap to say that at the instant of death, they still have that stain.

It is also a leap of Faith to believe they don’t.

Do we have to pick our poison ourselves?

While baptism is the normative way to erase original sin – and the only way that we know of to do that – you cannot say that God is prevented from exercising His own mysterious way of removing the original sin in the case of an unbaptized baby. It could be an extension of the idea of baptism by desire. The point is that we just don’t know for sure.

Which then, is a type of doubt, no?

The church has clearly taught one thing (damnation of infants) and not the other (salvation of infants), and people who have nothing formally stated on the salvation side to counterbalance the scale would rather think ‘we just don’t know for sure’.

Is that correct?

The position you are (or seem to be) arguing for is in fact very Orthodox. But it is not traditional Latin Catholic.

 

[una_fides]

As explained before, however, this needs to be read very carefully. The pronouncements that are given say that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin or in a state of original sin are destined for hell.

Too many people on this thread equate that with “unbaptized babies are destined for hell.” The problem is that you are automatically saying that unbaptized babies who die MUST be in a state of original sin.

The Church does NOT definitively teach that! It does teach that unbaptized babies have original sin, but you are making a leap to say that at the instant of death, they still have that stain. While baptism is the normative way to erase original sin – and the only way that we know of to do that – you cannot say that God is prevented from exercising His own mysterious way of removing the original sin in the case of an unbaptized baby. It could be an extension of the idea of baptism by desire. The point is that we just don’t know for sure.

While we can’t know for sure, wouldn’t it be a stretch to say that there’s a good chance they’ll be saved since we have absolutely no revelation on the matter. I personally believe they will not be permitted to attain the beatific vision but will not suffer at all since they have not committed any actual sins of their own. To me that corresponds with revelation on both God’s justice and mercy and the fact that no one deserves sanctifying grace or eternal life. It seems to correspond that if babies receive the gift of baptism from their parents’ choice and that the children of sinful parents that will 99.99% of the time grow up to be like their parents will not receive this gift. The vast majority of the time, children grow up to be like their parents, and the children of the faithful will most likely grow up to be faithful, and visa versa.

 

[una_fides]

This is a good explanation of the traditional Latin Catholic church’s position on infant baptism.

Damnation of infants is the fallback position of the church, if one deletes Limbo from the teaching.

Limbo in the sense of a permanent state neither in heaven nor hell I don’t believe was or has been a viable position. Has the Church ever officially taught it as a possibility?

 

[surritter]

It is also a leap of Faith to believe they don’t.

I am not saying that they don’t have original sin. I am saying that we shouldn’t make definitive judgments either way, which is what some folks were doing when reading that pope’s statement!

The church has clearly taught one thing (damnation of infants) and not the other (salvation of infants), and people who have nothing formally stated on the salvation side to counterbalance the scale would rather think ‘we just don’t know for sure’.

Is that correct?

No, I still say it’s not correct. The Church has definitively taught that those who die in a state of original sin are not going to heaven. But the “we don’t know for sure” part is in trying to make definitive statements that ALL unbaptized infants MUST be in a state of original sin at the instant of their deaths. See the difference?