Can the Church change its teaching?

[surritter]

If the Church has always taught there is a possibility of salvation for those outside the Church and Vatican II says what the Church has always said, then why didn’t everyone know about it before?

For the same reason that Catholics didn’t formally know about Mary’s immaculate conception for centuries, or any number of other teachings – it’s the idea of development of doctrine. I’m sure this was covered earlier in the thread!

FYI – regarding your quote above: The Church has NOT always taught that there is a possibility of salvation for those outside the Church. It has ALWAYS taught and STILL teaches that anyone going to heaven does so through his or her association with the Catholic Church. You seem to interpret this as meaning that only registered members of the Church can hope for salvation. Again, this was discussed earlier – such a false interpretation would mean that those who have never had the chance of hearing about Jesus were automatically destined for hell. This interpretation obviously conflicts with other teachings about God’s mercy and His ability to transcend the sacraments. Because of the admitted confusion, the Vatican released Dominus Iesus about ten years ago. That is not a change, but a further clarification on the meaning of established Church teaching.

 

[ron77nyc]

For the same reason that Catholics didn’t formally know about Mary’s immaculate conception for centuries, or any number of other teachings – it’s the idea of development of doctrine. I’m sure this was covered earlier in the thread!

FYI – regarding your quote above: The Church has NOT always taught that there is a possibility of salvation for those outside the Church. It has ALWAYS taught and STILL teaches that anyone going to heaven does so through his or her association with the Catholic Church. You seem to interpret this as meaning that only registered members of the Church can hope for salvation.

Do you think clergy and laity of previous generations were left with the idea that maybe somehow their Jewish or Protestant acquaintances would see them in heaven after hearing the following quotes? The words “imperfectly joined” were not in their vocabulary.

• “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which **no one at all **is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that **it is absolutely necessary **for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

What is taught today is a complete reversal of what was taught before. These councils and bulls were deliberately excluding non-Catholics. They were not concerned about being offensive. You can’t compare it to the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Malleus_01]

Ron Writes : What is taught today(Vatican II ) is a complete reversal of what was taught before. These councils and bulls were deliberately excluding non-Catholics. They were not concerned about being offensive.

Mal: Hense the worldwide Traditional Movement. dont assume that all “Catholics” dont recognise the irregularities and also dont assume it impossible that Heresy has in fact reared its ugly head in our time. There have been Heresies from within and from without throughout the history of the Catholic Church. The “Robber Council” comes to mind

" You can’t compare it to the Immaculate Conception. "

Mal: True - because the Immaculate Conception is Dogma. there is not a single Anathema in any document of Vatican II.

 

[rinnie]

Correct me if I’m wrong but are you saying the people are at fault for not picking this up when the Church was teaching it?

Well, you either blame the People for not studying their faith, and understanding it, or you blame the Church for teaching it and People not understanding it.

The Church can only teach us the faith, it cannot be blamed if some People grasp it and some do not.

 

[redrosetea]

It can’t change scripture and declare something that is a sin is permitted…Scripture is sealed in stone and can not be changed even by 1 word

 

[surritter]

What is taught today is a complete reversal of what was taught before. These councils and bulls were deliberately excluding non-Catholics. They were not concerned about being offensive. You can’t compare it to the Immaculate Conception.

I give up. If you are utterly convinced that “what is taught today is a complete reversal of what was taught before,” then I would think intellectual honesty would require you to join another religion.
I don’t mean this in a snarky or disrespectful way, but you believe that a foundational premise of the Catholic Church is faulty. This obviously means that everything which is built upon that foundational premise is coming from an unreliable source.

If you believe the Church’s teaching on the Real Presence, I would ask why, because it would be using the Protestant logic of “I’ll figure out which interpretation is correct based on my own understanding.”

 

[ron77nyc]

It can’t change scripture and declare something that is a sin is permitted…Scripture is sealed in stone and can not be changed even by 1 word

Scripture clearly teaches that only those who believe in Jesus will inherit eternal life. That has changed. The book of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant is obsolete. That has changed. The only thing actually carved in stone are the Ten Commandments and the Catholic ten are different from the Jewish ten in the book of Exodus.

 

[redrosetea]

That is your interpretation…I don’t ever recall hearing this from any priest nor any religoius

 

[ron77nyc]

Well, you either blame the People for not studying their faith, and understanding it, or you blame the Church for teaching it and People not understanding it.

The Church can only teach us the faith, it cannot be blamed if some People grasp it and some do not.

No…I’m saying the people ARE following exactly what the Church teaches and the teaching has changed that’s why the people are confused. The Church is turning something upside down and telling everyone “We’ve always said this.”

 

[ron77nyc]

That is your interpretation…I don’t ever recall hearing this from any priest nor any religoius

I’ll show you later. I have to leave my computer for a while.

 

[surritter]

I’ll show you later. I have to leave my computer for a while.

RedRose,
Make sure that he gives you a quote from a definitive Church teaching, such as a dogmatic proclamation or an ex cathedra statement. Otherwise, it is merely an individual priest’s view – just as Cardinal Kasper might be in error or even a pope who makes an off-the-cuff statement.

 

[redrosetea]

RedRose,
Make sure that he gives you a quote from a definitive Church teaching, such as a dogmatic proclamation or an ex cathedra statement. Otherwise, it is merely an individual priest’s view – just as Cardinal Kasper might be in error or even a pope who makes an off-the-cuff statement.

Thank you…I know all the tricks and I also know the history of the church…I listen to EWTN all the time and am aware people want to give their own filter instead of official teaching

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<< Scripture clearly teaches that only those who believe in Jesus will inherit eternal life. That has changed. The book of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant is obsolete. That has changed. The only thing actually carved in stone are the Ten Commandments and the Catholic ten are different from the Jewish ten in the book of Exodus. >>>>

Mal: You appear to be minimizing the fact that JESUS is GOD. Jesus formed the Catholic Church. The Seven Sacraments. Giving to the Pope his Bishops and Priests the power to Bind or Loose. And it is the Guidance of the Holy Ghost that corrects the Errors wrought by Heresy which are the product of Men. In reading your post - it would seem to indicate your belief that the Church is merely oriented to Man. And as for your exegesis of the Term “Belief” - Scripture clearly indicates Belief is LIVED it isnt an emotion. As for the Commandments - Jesus perfected and explained them fully. They all boil down to two. If Heresy gets out of control - by defection from the faith - Great Saints will arise and set the Church back on the right course. Ultimately - Christ will come again. The Old Testament was the Precursor to the Coming of the Messiah - Men who prophesied by messages from Angels - BUT GOD MADE MAN is COME. So the Old Testament was not rendered obsolete - but PERFECTED by the WORD of GOD - and the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us. And in the time he dwelt amongst us and since we have the revelation of GOD and salvation by his Blood shed on the wood of the Holy Cross. And as for the “only thing carved” - the Nails carved into the hands and feet of GOD made Man and the Lance into his side. St Thomas had to see this for himself before he would believe. It would appear that doubting Thomases still exist in our day as well.

pax

 

[ron77nyc]

It can’t change scripture and declare something that is a sin is permitted…Scripture is sealed in stone and can not be changed even by 1 word

Scripture clearly teaches that only those who believe in Jesus will inherit eternal life.

I already did this in post# 403

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

2 Corinthians 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The book of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant is obsolete.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Hebrews 8:6 But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises. 7 For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament: 9 Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them: 12 Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more. 13 Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. **And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end. **

Orthodox Jewish Bible
13 When Hashem uses the word “CHADASHA” he has thereby made the Brit HaRishonah yeshanah and a Brit thus made aging, is near to being yakhlof (vanished).

usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews8.htm
13 When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.

The only thing actually carved in stone are the Ten Commandments and the Catholic ten are different from the Jewish ten in the book of Exodus.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

The side by side comparison is in the above url. The Catholics commandments omit the following:
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[ron77nyc]

Malleus 01;6322760You appear to be minimizing the fact that JESUS is GOD. Jesus formed the Catholic Church. The Seven Sacraments. Giving to the Pope his Bishops and Priests the power to Bind or Loose.

You can’t claim to be infallible and the pillar and bulwark of truth while not following the apostle’s teaching on salvation.

And it is the Guidance of the Holy Ghost that corrects the Errors wrought by Heresy which are the product of Men. In reading your post - it would seem to indicate your belief that the Church is merely oriented to Man.

A simple brush up on the bible would correct the current errors.

And as for your exegesis of the Term “Belief” - Scripture clearly indicates Belief is LIVED it isnt an emotion.

Now you’re assuming that I don’t know what faith is or I have some definition of faith that is not Catholic.

As for the Commandments - Jesus perfected and explained them fully. They all boil down to two. If Heresy gets out of control - by defection from the faith - Great Saints will arise and set the Church back on the right course. Ultimately - Christ will come again. The Old Testament was the Precursor to the Coming of the Messiah - Men who prophesied by messages from Angels - BUT GOD MADE MAN is COME. So the Old Testament was not rendered obsolete - but PERFECTED by the WORD of GOD

Read the entire chapter of Hebrews 8.

• and the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us. And in the time he dwelt amongst us and since we have the revelation of GOD and salvation by his Blood shed on the wood of the Holy Cross. And as for the “only thing carved” - the Nails carved into the hands and feet of GOD made Man and the Lance into his side. St Thomas had to see this for himself before he would believe. It would appear that doubting Thomases still exist in our day as well.
  pax

If you’re accusing me of being a doubting Thomas I can assure you I have no doubts about the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[una_fides]

Here’s what’s confusing. Father Feeney was stating the official Church dogma and he was told to stop. Cardinal Kasper and EWTN are teaching the opposite of official dogma and no one is telling them to stop.

Unfortunately, the Church stopped telling people to stop after V2. Feeney was a few years before the Council. Feeney also denied baptism of desire and baptism by blood, both of which were clearly taught by the Church.

 

[una_fides]

If the Church has always taught there is a possibility of salvation for those outside the Church and Vatican II says what the Church has always said, then why didn’t everyone know about it before?

There is no salvation outside the Church. The Church still teaches this and always has. The Church has also always taught that those who are presently outside the Church have the possibility of salvation as well–by entering the Church. No one is saved outside the Church. It’s not possible. But they can be saved through baptism of desire or blood and thereby be placed into the soul of the Church. Though they would not be visibly a member of the body, they would be invisibly a member of the Church through their desire for entry (along with the other necessary dispositions).

 

[redrosetea]

I was taught than anyone that lived a good life will see God ,by a priest in the 1960’s when I converted pre Vatican II

 

[sidbrown]

What freedom does Vatican II state man has? Freedom from being forced to accept a religion against his will. Does that mean that man has a divine right to worship God contrary to how he has revealed he only wishes to be worshiped (in spirit and in truth)? Of course not and that’s not what Vatican II was saying, although many try to make it say that in contradiction.

The Church has in her past permitted the practice of false religions and such can be justified because of a greater good or in order to avoid a greater evil. In this case, the Church has clarified through her years of experience in observing the result of forbidding false religions to worship that a greater evil will inevitably occur in wars, murders, hatred, etc that can take place as well as forcing people to embrace a religion that they should be free to embrace. The key to understanding and trying to reconcile the two is that man does not have a divine right to exercise a false religion, which would thereby violate the 1st commandment any more than he has a divine right to murder someone, but because of the greater evils that occur as a result of outlawing false religions, the Church has said that man should be free to choose his religion on a civil level, though on a divine level, God has instructed and revealed that he desires all men to worship him in his holy Catholic Church.

“This Vatican synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom.”

 

[sidbrown]

Can you please provide the link to the full text of that story?? It would be greatly appreciated.

You may go to Zenit News on the date referenced.