Can the Church change its teaching?

[StillWondering]

Is it true that the audio seriies that you ae recommending is not an infallible document, and therefore, it could contain errors.

Sid, I thought you were going to come back with references and links for at least some of the posts where you had quotes. Especially the Zenit one because I fruitlessly spent much time on searching for the source on that one.

As for your statement, yes it is not an infallible audio series. In fact, I do not even know of any declared infallible audio series. I would still highly recommend it. It’s salvation history as explained by Dr. Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins. However it is not their own ideas but those expounded by the Early Church Fathers and distilled by these two bibliophile for us. It’s very insightful and helps clear up a lot of questions I did not know I even had.

… but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

This is still what the Church teaches. Basically it says you cannot *merit *Heaven. Each and every one of us needs divine grace. For those who are faithful Catholics, this is evident in our faithful living and obedience to God through His Church. For everyone else, it is not evidently manifested (i.e. no baptism).

Baptism is a Sacrament, which is a physical sign of the supernatural effect that is efficacious by the sign itself. In other words baptism does what it is pointing to, death and birth into the supernatural life. We, Catholics and our separated brothers and sisters (other Christians), have physical evidence of this divine grace. Other people may receive this divine grace in ways not evident to us but we are not privy to such information.

 

[ron77nyc]

We, Catholics and our separated brothers and sisters (other Christians), have physical evidence of this divine grace. Other people may receive this divine grace in ways not evident to us but we are not privy to such information.

I agree with you on all the above but did the Church always teach this?

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<< God will save His chosen people the Jews but is that what the Church has always taught? >>>>

Actually - Jesus came to the Jews not the Gentiles. The Gentiles he gave the ability to save themselves through faith - but to the Jews did he come to fulfill the Covenant. (1:10 and 1:11)

John Chapter 1

1:1. In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

1:2. The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

1:4. In him was life: and the life was the light of men.

1:5. And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.

1:6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

1:7. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

1:8. He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

1:9. That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

1:10. He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.

1:11. He came unto his own: and his own received him not.

1:12. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

1:13. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1:14. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

 

[ron77nyc]

Is that a yes or a no?

 

[Malleus_01]

Well Ron - you are the one who made the Statement that GOD will save his chosen people but the Holy Gospel according to St John would seem to indicate that He already tried and they rejected him. So I disagree with that part of your statement.

 

[ron77nyc]

So do you believe the Jews can be saved by observing the “irrevocable” Old Covenant as stated in Vatican II?

 

[Malleus_01]

Ron: So do you believe the Jews can be saved by observing the “irrevocable” Old Covenant as stated in Vatican II?

Mal: Of course not. Vatican II was a pastoral council as admitted by Paul the VI .

St Marks Holy Gospel

16:15. And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.

Pretty clear cut

St Johns Holy Gospel:

6:53. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

6:54. Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

6:55. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

6:56. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

6:57. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.

6:58. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

6:59. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

6:60. These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

And who was he talking to? The Jews? Does this sound like an endorsement of the Old Covenant to you?

Or:

14:6. Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

14:7. If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him.

14:8. Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father; and it is enough for us.

14:9. Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou: Shew us the Father?

14:10. Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

14:11. Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?

Is this also an endorsement of the Old Covenant?

You tell me

 

[Genesis315]

So do you believe the Jews can be saved by observing the “irrevocable” Old Covenant as stated in Vatican II?

Of course, if by Old Covenant you mean the Abrahamic–the covenant of faith (the Mosaic being intervening and transitory, not irrevocable). Obviously, faithfulness to this Covenant involves faithfulness to the Messiah, who is the fulfillment of it. St. Paul explains this well in Romans and Galatians.

Furthermore (to satisfy the inevitable “what ifs”") those Jews who serve God in a spirit of faith and charity, solicitous of the truth, but do not yet know Our Lord, will find what they seek–either through the ordinary means or maybe even through some extraordinary means known to God.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<<< Furthermore (to satisfy the inevitable “what ifs”") those Jews who serve God in a spirit of faith and charity, solicitous of the truth, but do not yet know Our Lord, will find what they seek–either through the ordinary means or maybe even through some extraordinary means known to God. >>>>>

Mal: But even under the parameters of “Natural Law” as described by St Thomas Aquinas they are saved through the Catholic Church in spite of the Talmudic religion - not because of it.

pax

 

[Genesis315]

<<<<< Furthermore (to satisfy the inevitable “what ifs”") those Jews who serve God in a spirit of faith and charity, solicitous of the truth, but do not yet know Our Lord, will find what they seek–either through the ordinary means or maybe even through some extraordinary means known to God. >>>>>

Mal: But even under the parameters of “Natural Law” as described by St Thomas Aquinas they are saved through the Catholic Church in spite of the Talmudic religion - not because of it.

pax

Exactly . Salvation cannot be found apart from the Body of Christ, which receives salvation from the Head.

 

[rinnie]

Of course, if by Old Covenant you mean the Abrahamic–the covenant of faith (the Mosaic being intervening and transitory, not irrevocable). Obviously, faithfulness to this Covenant involves faithfulness to the Messiah, who is the fulfillment of it. St. Paul explains this well in Romans and Galatians.

Furthermore (to satisfy the inevitable “what ifs”") those Jews who serve God in a spirit of faith and charity, solicitous of the truth, but do not yet know Our Lord, will find what they seek–either through the ordinary means or maybe even through some extraordinary means known to God.

THANK-YOU. Someone who understand what the Pope is saying.

 

[Malleus_01]

Genesis writes : Exactly . Salvation cannot be found apart from the Body of Christ, which receives salvation from the Head.

Rinnie writes : THANK-YOU. Someone who understand what the Pope is saying.

Mal: And Jesus Christ is the Head and the Pope is his Vicar.

 

[ron77nyc]

Of course, if by Old Covenant you mean the Abrahamic–the covenant of faith (the Mosaic being intervening and transitory, not irrevocable). Obviously, faithfulness to this Covenant involves faithfulness to the Messiah, who is the fulfillment of it. St. Paul explains this well in Romans and Galatians.

Did the Catholic Church always teach what you are saying?

 

[una_fides]

So do you believe the Jews can be saved by observing the “irrevocable” Old Covenant as stated in Vatican II?

God’s old covenant was fulfilled in the New. The old taught and pointed to the new, and the new is its fulfillment and completion. The Jews are saved through the new covenant, which completed, fulfilled, and nullified the old. The old wasn’t “revoked” it was superseded by its fulfillment and completion in Christ.

 

[rinnie]

This is the CCC and its put so simple and easy. Here is what the Pope said.

Outside of the Church there is no Salvation

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who at no fault fo their own do not know Christ and his Church.

Those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve salvation.

 

[una_fides]

I can’t say I did personally, But I can say that God did say all things are possible through him. I would say John the Baptist could hold a pretty good candle to sin. I think he would be one that pretty much filled the ticket. From the teachings of the Word he was pretty much perfected in Christ. I think Job pretty much did real well also. Let me keep thinking!

There is no evidence that John the Baptist or Job never committed mortal sin. A

 

[una_fides]

I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying. But be carefull. The Blessed Mother was saved from original sin also but at the moment of her conception. We have to make it clear on this. Because her Mother and Father had original sin she did have the stain of it, but was saved immediately at conception. Which I am sure you meant.

You say this so confidently. Can you provide any official sources at any point after the dogma was defined that says that the Blessed Mother “did have the stain of [original sin]”? The definition of the dogma itself says she was preserved entirely. Yes, her mother and father did have original sin, but the Blessed Mother was preserved from original sin as well as its affects. It is my understanding that since she was preserved from the moment of her conception that she did not inherit concupiscence. Here’s my source: Catholic Encyclopedia:

    In the Constitution *Ineffabilis Deus* of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary…"
The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
"…in the first instance of her conception…"
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
"…was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin…"
The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
"…by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."
The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ’s redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term “Immaculate Conception.”

 

[una_fides]

BUt what I am saying we can go through this world rejecting sin. Just because we have the incentive to sin, we can reject it. But yes so few do. But there are many that do. That is why we call them Saints. They have through the grace of God been granted the strength to not give into these desires to react on sin.

Yes, but the saints still were sinners and committed grievous sins. Look at St. Augustine for example prior to his conversion. The point is that everyone commits grievous sins and needs Christ’s forgiveness through his saving sacraments. Apart from the sacraments, salvation becomes an extremely difficult matter. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but it’s extremely difficult, rare, and unlikely for anyone to have perfect contrition, perfect charity, and supernatural faith who doesn’t even know they need those things or in most cases even know what they are.

Our human nature is no longer lacking because Jesus Christ wiped out Original Sin. But the desire is still there. But we have that Grace from Jesus to over power that desire. So while he erased the sin I agree the stain is still there, but his grace has overpowered sin.

Again are you stating your opinions here or do you have Church documents that teach these things? How did Christ “wipe out” original sin? Every human creature is still conceived in a state of original sin. The only way we know of that he becomes free from the guilt of original sin is through the sacrament of baptism (or at least the desire thereof animated by perfect charity). Even after baptism our human nature remains defective. We still are inclined to sin. Yes through Christ and through his grace we receive in the sacraments we have the ability and power to overcome these sins and refuse to give in to these inclinations, but nonetheless these powerful inclinations are there, and unfortunately, most people just give in.

And my proof is this, when we feel that desire to sin, we still have control from free will to sin or not to sin. God made that possible. We cannot blame others, while they may have played a part in pushing us to sin, it is Gods grace that can give us the power to push back and not give into the sin.

While I agree venial sin is the desire at times, venial sin is not the same as mortal sin, acting on it. Venial sin will not keep us from heaven, but mortal sin will.file:///Users/matthewdimartino/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png

We retain free will to choose good or evil, but due to the effects original sin still has on our human nature (even after baptism) we see sin in the wrong light as if it is something good or to be desired. It is only through Christ and his grace that we can see sin for what it is.

Mortal sin is not just the acting out of desires and venial sins are not just the desires. Such an understanding is overly simplistic as well as fundamentally flawed. We can and do commit mortal sins by just willfully engaging in the desire for the action to be completed. Lust and hatred are mortal sins! You don’t have to commit fornication or murder someone in order to have committed a mortal sin. Christ taught that if a man so much as looks on a woman to lust after her then he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Here is a great site on mortal sin that should hopefully explain things: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html It uses Scripture and the Catechism and goes through the 10 commandments. Very good resource.

 

[ron77nyc]

There is no evidence that John the Baptist or Job never committed mortal sin.

Rahab the prostitute and many other sinners were made saints because of their faith.

Hebrews 11

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

[ron77nyc]

Rahab the prostitute and many other sinners were made saints because of their faith.
David killed one of his soldiers and then took his wife. He’s also among those Old Testament saints.
Hebrews 11

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.